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Old 06-15-2012, 11:50 AM
 
5,552 posts, read 2,831,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
OK, I know you don't need nor have you asked for my blessing (for those of you who don't know me, I'm a black hat wearing Orthodox Jew), but Jews do not have any problem with athiests being athiests. And both religious and non-religious Jews would agree on this point.

You folks are all set. Live a good life. Treat your fellow man with kindness and respect. Do the right thing. If you don't have a "book" to tell you what the right thing is, ask your parents. Ask somebody you respect.

And if there is a G-d, I can assure you He is smart enough to know good from bad, and He'll give you the benefit of the doubt when it is your time to be judged. You will be judged by the totality of your deeds on this earth. You will not be judged by your creed. Talk is cheap, but the proof is in the pudding (your actions). And if you are right and there is not a G-d, then you've lost nothing by leading a life dedicated to treating others with respect and kindness.

Anyone who comes to tell you otherwise, I would be suspect of their likelihood in being judged similarly favorably.
Thanks! I accept that you are Jewish, and despite the fact that you do some crazy stuff in the name of your religion to your kids genitals, I think that you are pretty accepting of others which is nice, and I'm glad you aren't demanding that we all circumcise our kids by your laws. I appreciate that. And so does my son.

I appreciate the fact that you think my judgement will go fine despite my atheism, and I also believe you won't realize there isn't a God once you die so it should work out pretty good for both of us.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:12 PM
 
3,051 posts, read 1,320,255 times
Reputation: 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Well I can only really speak for myself, but I could care less what others believe. It is their issue. However if we are going to discuss something, then ignoring its inconsistencies or just rhetorically patting the believer on the head and saying "Isn't that nice" is just pointless. The point of discussing is to fling ideas against each other, dissect them , and see what has merit. It is the only real way of testing ones ideas, and finding flaws.

If a theist decides not to be theist after finding that their ideas have flaws, that is their decision. Others can compartmentalize their beliefs or otherwise deal with the cognitive dissonance. Regardless, presenting your ideas here is an invitation to discuss, to debate, and to critique. That is the point.

I honestly think most of the non-theist on this board approach it like I do. We are not trying to convert others, merely have an honest discussion of the issues involved. We are human being who have emotions just like theists, so we can get snippy when we feel like we are being preached at, marginalized, or ignored, particularly when the other party in the discussion refuses to actually discuss, and just want to proclaim.

-NoCapo
Well said, NoCapo. I like the idea that these are forums where people can test ideas to both learn and to potentially self-censure going forward on what ideas they hold to be true.

Some in this forum, however, are one trick ponies. Clearly posting a YouTube video about some Orthodox Jews speaking out against a New York gay marriage legislative bill is only put in a thread like this to inflame - when the subject of the thread is "Jews think Athiest views are not an impediment to their reaching Olam Haba."
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Boca Raton, FL
114 posts, read 51,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Nate, your post hits too many points for me to concisely comment on. But as an Athiest, if your mother and grandmother are Jews, then you too remain Jewish, just with an "Athiest outlook" on life. In terms of Jews (Chareidi Jews, you mention) defining who is Jewish and who is not, well somebody has to. In truth, all Jews engage in this practice. It's just that less religious Jews use their opinions, or the "norms of the day" to define who is Jewish, and religious Jews use the Torah as their guide. That's very consistent with how Torah Jews make ALL decisions. So I'm not sure what the complaint is.
The complaint is that they attempted to pass a law to make themselves the only ones qualified. For the record, I imagine they wouldn't even consider you Jewish, let alone myself.

Everybody tries to judge, however futile, who is what they say they are. Atheists do it all the time... if you don't believe me, just look up S.E. Cupp. For me, I accept that she's a provisional atheist, but I am 100% convinced that at some point, perhaps even soon, she's going to release a book detailing her conversion to YEC, evangelical Christianity (and it will be very lucrative for her).

Christians do it, too. They're quite bad at it, in fact.

The issue comes when you try to pass a law that says you and you alone have the authority to make that judgement.

Quote:
In terms of the long part of your post about Judaism (and other religions) fading away. Well, clearly I don't see that. This is a good time to post a very famous Mark Twain quote:
I think perhaps you misread me. I actually agree with what Mark Twain had to say about Judaism. My point was that, even after modern religion is relegated to the myths of ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, the Celts, and the Nordics, Judaism as a culture will, in fact, live on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by In God We Trust View Post
An Orthodox Jew is 100% certain that God exist. It seems like you are not sure if God exist or not
You sound more like an Agnostic or secular Jew. You said the same thing on an another thread "If God exist".
Orthodox Jews are very confident in their faith, but even they recognize that absolute knowledge is not yet at hand.

It's mainly the Haredi who seem to be unable to recognize that they could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
Honestly who does the name calling on these forum? Whom are on these forum trying 24/7 to deconvert others( hint: it's not .twinspin.)?
Evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
There is a delta between discussing and lobbying.
Who's lobbying?
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:48 PM
 
2,043 posts, read 748,120 times
Reputation: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Well said, NoCapo. I like the idea that these are forums where people can test ideas to both learn and to potentially self-censure going forward on what ideas they hold to be true.

Some in this forum, however, are one trick ponies. Clearly posting a YouTube video about some Orthodox Jews speaking out against a New York gay marriage legislative bill is only put in a thread like this to inflame - when the subject of the thread is "Jews think Athiest views are not an impediment to their reaching Olam Haba."
Sure everybody has the thing that gets their goat. For some it is Christian proselytization, for some it is imposing religious morality through laws, for me it is illogical argumentation. It is sometimes hard not to respond forcefully to something that pushes our buttons. I have not seen the thread you mention, but I am sure that the poster was probably intending to point out that not all flavors of Judaism are a tolerant of non-Jews as you appear to be. I agree, sometimes it can be beside the point. Sometimes it is something the poster fails to understand (like the whole atheists can't have morality), and sometimes it is a weak point in our belief system that needs to be addressed. We don't necessarily have to change our beliefs, but at least to understand the limitations of our reasoning.

It is not a perfect system, tempers and resentment, frustration and mulishness cause us to miss out on so much, but I have learned more about myself, and my understanding of things by discussions (and sometimes arguments) with folks like tigetmax and Mystic. In general I disagree with them, but it is the process of understanding what they are saying, and then trying to understand my own point of view and how convey it that is immeasurably valuable. For me the thing that frustrates me to no end is when in this process, I feel liek the discussion gets derailed, because we hit a point where ew are not communicating any longer. Once the other person stops listening (or if I stop listening, but that is harder for me to detect...), and just keeps repeating a position without explanation, or without considering what I am saying, we are no longer discussing. I am simply being preached at, and the usefulness of the exercise is at an end for all parties.

-NoCapo
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Boca Raton, FL
114 posts, read 51,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeutchBoy View Post
I thought jews hated non-jews ???
Not all Jews are Haredi, and not all Haredi hate non-Jews.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:18 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
16,124 posts, read 8,157,188 times
Reputation: 2680
Quote:
Originally Posted by NateHevens View Post
..


Who's lobbying?
"Lobbying (also lobby) is the act of attempting to influence decisions made by officials in the government, most often legislators or members of regulatory agencies. Lobbying is done by many different types of people and organized groups, including individuals in the private sector, corporations, fellow legislators or government officials, or advocacy groups (interest groups)." (wiki)

The term is appropriate where some atheist group is attempting to get 'In God We trust' removed from the currency or Chrixmas trees removed from the public square. And also where Theist groups are trying to get Creationism taught in school, blasphemy laws included in legislation or Australopithecus fossils removed from display.

And the abortion/women ministers/gay marriage debate is lobbying on both sides.

Lobbying and advocacy is ok and moaning about it is rather contrary to the ideals of democracy, I rather feel. Except where the case is based not on the merits of the case but on what pressure or coercion can be brought to bear on the administration.

"Just include a law to make insulting Islam an offence....teach Creation alongside evolution....allow anyone to have their job description altered to meet their religious ideals...and you can count on our votes. Refuse to play ball, and you can kiss the next election goodbye..'

That alone is why we need to raise that 8% to something nearer parity.
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 3,358,282 times
Reputation: 1972
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeutchBoy View Post
I thought jews hated non-jews ???
What makes you think that? While I am sure that there are some who might, Jewish people, like any other group, run the spectrum of feelings, beliefs and emotions. For example, I am an American Indian who attended Catholic School, but dated a Jewish girl and her parents were all okay with it.
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:05 AM
 
3,051 posts, read 1,320,255 times
Reputation: 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeutchBoy View Post
I thought jews hated non-jews ???
Obviously a new nic created to troll the site. Message to Mods on the way...
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Boca Raton, FL
114 posts, read 51,733 times
Reputation: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
"Lobbying (also lobby) is the act of attempting to influence decisions made by officials in the government, most often legislators or members of regulatory agencies. Lobbying is done by many different types of people and organized groups, including individuals in the private sector, corporations, fellow legislators or government officials, or advocacy groups (interest groups)." (wiki)

The term is appropriate where some atheist group is attempting to get 'In God We trust' removed from the currency or Chrixmas trees removed from the public square. And also where Theist groups are trying to get Creationism taught in school, blasphemy laws included in legislation or Australopithecus fossils removed from display.

And the abortion/women ministers/gay marriage debate is lobbying on both sides.

Lobbying and advocacy is ok and moaning about it is rather contrary to the ideals of democracy, I rather feel. Except where the case is based not on the merits of the case but on what pressure or coercion can be brought to bear on the administration.

"Just include a law to make insulting Islam an offence....teach Creation alongside evolution....allow anyone to have their job description altered to meet their religious ideals...and you can count on our votes. Refuse to play ball, and you can kiss the next election goodbye..'

That alone is why we need to raise that 8% to something nearer parity.
I was under the impression that gabfest meant "lobbying" in the same way that evangelical Christians "lobby"; proselytizing. I was asking him where atheist do that?

Of course, there's the idiotic billboards put up by American Atheists, but beyond that... D
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:02 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
16,124 posts, read 8,157,188 times
Reputation: 2680
Quote:
Originally Posted by NateHevens View Post
I was under the impression that gabfest meant "lobbying" in the same way that evangelical Christians "lobby"; proselytizing. I was asking him where atheist do that?

Of course, there's the idiotic billboards put up by American Atheists, but beyond that... D
Ok gotcha. Proselytizing the same thing as lobbying, for me it isn't. Atheists, what they do it is maybe proselytizing the same like the Christians do? Who knows? All I know is what they preach makes sense to me. Except maybe the posters put up...maybe to advertise is good business strategy. Maybe a waste of gelt, only. So who cares? It's their money.
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