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Old 06-25-2012, 08:37 PM
 
2,132 posts, read 1,906,572 times
Reputation: 2370

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Defending against the willful ignorance of religion is very different than the persistent push to force that ignorance upon every individual.

Get the theists to treat their religion, including their willful ignorance, bias, bigotry, and hate, like their wanker by keeping it private and forcing it on no one, and you won't hear a peep out of me.
I can't say I disagree with you about the willful ignorance, bias, bigotry, and hate that flows from much of theism. But at the same time we live in a society of individual rights. I believe atheism has benefited greatly under the Constitution, and as an agnostic (not yet atheist) I will respect the ability of other citizens to assert their own Constitutional rights of free speech and free exercise, even if for a cause/religion/motive that I personally find repugnant.

That's not to say I can't be demeaning, belittling, or voice my own opinion in an arrogant way, because I would be well within my own rights to do so, subject to basic decency. I just choose not to because I don't find it a particularly effective or productive way to communicate. But I don't find that to be a religious/atheist distinction per se, but rather a personality trait.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
3,912 posts, read 1,822,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
Am I wrong? Do you feel that atheists have a right to bash and belittle the religious?
Yes, you are wrong.

We Atheists have the right to bash and belittle anyone we want. Get used to it.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 994,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Defending against the willful ignorance of religion is very different than the persistent push to force that ignorance upon every individual.

Get the theists to treat their religion, including their willful ignorance, bias, bigotry, and hate, like their wanker by keeping it private and forcing it on no one, and you won't hear a peep out of me.
Ignorance comes in many shapes and sizes. It comes dressed as religious and sometimes as atheist. Someone who uses bigotry and bias to get their point across is ignorant. I think it's funny that you ask people of faith to not be ignorant yet you display it yourself. You ask them to keep it private yet you make it public.

Quote:
WBC hates for the sake of hate, based on what they think a long dead goat herder believed, that is religion. I think it is great for the more these loons demonstrate their ignorance and hate the sooner people with the capacity of true thought will recognize the charade that religion is, the biggest con job ever perpetuated on mankind.
The hate charade works both ways. If the way you display your atheism comes off as hate, you will deter people from whatever message you bring. You might think you are saving them, how is this different than a Christian who thinks they are saving you? You can't spread hate and then ask others not to. You can't ask for tolerance if you give none. How can you ask them to be rational if you refuse to do it.

Quote:
It is those that oppose the ignorance that have made the changes.
In the last century this is gained;
.... the right for women to vote
.... equal rights for people of color
.... the rights for people of different races to marry


...... yet much ignorance based on bronze age ignorance still exists, as people with different sexual preferences are still being told they are inferior and being discriminated against.
Do you know how these groups got what they wanted? They understood their oppressors, they used intelligence not the same ignorance their oppressors used. If you want people to listen you need to speak softly and with a caring heart.

"The most basic of all human needs is the need to understand and be understood. The best way to understand people is to listen to them." Ralph Nichols




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Old 06-25-2012, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 994,879 times
Reputation: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Yes, you are wrong.

We Atheists have the right to bash and belittle anyone we want. Get used to it.
How am I wrong? Why do you have the right? Why do you need to belittle? For an atheists to demand proof of religion you lack proof for your reasoning.

Then you are as ignorant as those that think they have the right to save you and make laws based on their beliefs. I am an atheist and for me to be ignorant and belittle those that don't see religion as I do actually makes me worse then them. That is why I don't do it. It shows lack of understanding, bully mentality, and is probably done because they feel hurt by religion.

I don't feel hurt by religion as religion is the reason I woke up. Religion is the reason I began questioning everything when I was young. Sadly I didn't question religion the same way until I was older.

If we want religious people to grow up and out of myth, then we need to show them we are grown up, not as childish as a school yard bully.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Rational World Park
5,000 posts, read 2,010,265 times
Reputation: 2358
If you want to be a passive atheist and allow religious people to dictate policy and infect the public arena with all the ills of their dogma than that's your right.

I choose to be vocal and present. I actually care about other people, especially those most vunerable to the delusion of religion. You are free to be timid, quiet and left alone. I'm free to shout as loud as I please. Just because we're both atheist, doesn't mean we represent each other in any way.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Rational World Park
5,000 posts, read 2,010,265 times
Reputation: 2358
Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
How am I wrong? Why do you have the right? Why do you need to belittle? For an atheists to demand proof of religion you lack proof for your reasoning.

Then you are as ignorant as those that think they have the right to save you and make laws based on their beliefs. I am an atheist and for me to be ignorant and belittle those that don't see religion as I do actually makes me worse then them. That is why I don't do it. It shows lack of understanding, bully mentality, and is probably done because they feel hurt by religion.

I don't feel hurt by religion as religion is the reason I woke up. Religion is the reason I began questioning everything when I was young. Sadly I didn't question religion the same way until I was older.

If we want religious people to grow up and out of myth, then we need to show them we are grown up, not as childish as a school yard bully.
You know I've met atheists like this and it pains me to no end. I recently watched Religilous with an atheists group in NYC. It was a great time with a lively discussion afterwards. One gentleman said that he thought Bill Maher was being to harsh and wasn't going to reach any theist. That's completely short sighted. It's like claiming that only one type of teaching, workout, diet, testing, study is beneficial. It's simply a ridiculous premise. People are effected by different stimulus in different ways. One theists may be driven to research their beliefs by sarcastic clowning, others may respond to a charismatic scientist like Neil Tyson, maybe a passionate debate with Hitchens or a more reserved one with Sam Harris.

You keep talking about "belittling". Stating exactly what religious beliefs are happens to appear belittling because they are ridiculous. We aren't obligated to pretend that religious belief is sane. If one feels belittled by the hearing their own beliefs then they should change what they believe in.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,933 posts, read 18,513,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
Why are some atheists so entitled? They come off as arrogant as the worst fundi-chritsians. I think atheism is something people have to come to on THEIR own. It isn't something that should be forced. Making fun of or degrading those that believe in various faiths only makes you, Speaking medically here, resemble the opening of the rectum.

As an atheist, I want to be left alone. I want to be able to not believe in whatever I want. I want to be able to focus on real science and history without someone spewing religious mumbo jumbo. Since I want this, I will do the same for the religious. I won't force my views on them, belittle them by making a joke about them or degrading them. I respect their choice to believe what they want. That is their choice. Even when they are trying to pass laws that are full of biblical fallacies and teach false history or science, I will never stoop so low as to bash them or make fun of them.

I ask that other atheists do the same. One reason I had a hard time coming to accept that I was an atheist is that most atheist I know are jerks. I was ashamed to have been associated with the religious jerks, why would I want to join another group that is just like them? I guess this is why I associate as a free-thinker and not an atheist.

Am I wrong? Do you feel that atheists have a right to bash and belittle the religious? Why? What's the point? How does it help progress anything? How does it make you any different than the WBC?
I just made a little journey reviewing your posting history, and although you claim to be an atheist, I seriously doubt it...Your posts reek of disrespect and dislike, bordering on hatred for atheists...I think you are a poe.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 994,879 times
Reputation: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenyo View Post
If you want to be a passive atheist and allow religious people to dictate policy and infect the public arena with all the ills of their dogma than that's your right.
Who said anything about allowing that? I am not going to waste my time arguing with people I know wont/aren't listening. I refuse to go out of my way to do so. If they come to me, ok. If there is a law that is going to pass then I will stand against it. If someone wants to put a bible on every desk in every school, I will rise against it. But only when it presents itself. There are far to many other things to do with my time then attempt to belittle others.

Quote:
I choose to be vocal and present. I actually care about other people, especially those most vulnerable to the delusion of religion. You are free to be timid, quiet and left alone. I'm free to shout as loud as I please. Just because we're both atheist, doesn't mean we represent each other in any way.
Good for you. But to say that as atheists we don't represent each other or other atheists is a load if I have ever heard one. If you are the only atheist someone knows, you are the representation of atheism to that person. If you come off as an arrogant jerk who appears bent on harassing people for their beliefs, that is how they will see all atheists.

When I first came on here I thought the majority of atheists were petty, arrogant, had entitlement issues. Luckily I met people like Sanspur, rifleman, and WhipperSnapper 88. These guys made a huge impact on me. They helped me to apply the same reasoning I used for history and science to my religious beliefs as well. They did this without making me feel stupid.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 994,879 times
Reputation: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenyo View Post
You know I've met atheists like this and it pains me to no end. I recently watched Religilous with an atheists group in NYC. It was a great time with a lively discussion afterwards. One gentleman said that he thought Bill Maher was being to harsh and wasn't going to reach any theist. That's completely short sighted. It's like claiming that only one type of teaching, workout, diet, testing, study is beneficial. It's simply a ridiculous premise. People are effected by different stimulus in different ways. One theists may be driven to research their beliefs by sarcastic clowning, others may respond to a charismatic scientist like Neil Tyson, maybe a passionate debate with Hitchens or a more reserved one with Sam Harris.

You keep talking about "belittling". Stating exactly what religious beliefs are happens to appear belittling because they are ridiculous. We aren't obligated to pretend that religious belief is sane. If one feels belittled by the hearing their own beliefs then they should change what they believe in.
There is nothing insane about belief in religion, unless you hurt people. It's simple old knowledge that hasn't worked its way out of our system yet. It's one of life's coping mechanisms, why do you think religion has changed over the years? Religion evolves over time to explain things. Now, we are coming to an age where we don't need religion to explain things because we have science.

Do you think people stopped believing in the Greek Gods overnight? Do you think the egyptian god stories were forgotten with the passing of season? If you do, get real. It's a slow process made slower when people push it too hard. Without our scientific knowledge the religious beliefs wouldn't seem that ridiculous. You need to realize that you are not atheist simply by choice. You are atheist because of the time in which you were born. If you were born 100 or 200 years earlier you most likely wouldn't be atheist. It's just like religion, it's mostly based on geographical birthplace and year of birth. If you were born in the middle east you would probably be Muslim and not atheist. So the next time your belittling someone for their "ridiculous and insane" beliefs, remember that you could've been the one with the "ridiculous and insane" beliefs. How would you want someone to have deconverted you? With humiliation or with patience? How do you react when someone insults you? Do you begin to question what you believe? I know I don't and don't know many that do.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 994,879 times
Reputation: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I just made a little journey reviewing your posting history, and although you claim to be an atheist, I seriously doubt it...Your posts reek of disrespect and dislike, bordering on hatred for atheists...I think you are a poe.
Nope. Recently deconverted. I was always questioning my religious beliefs and changed them often. It was because I would always start asking questions and never find answers. So I would switch. Finally I just gave up looking for answers in religion and started looking for answers in science and history. You are actually one of the reasons for my deconversion.

Just because I am not willing to attack and call people stupid for believing in their religion or God doesn't make me a poe. It's called understanding, integrity, and patience. It's what happens when you love to study how the mind works, history, theology, and metaphysics.

Last edited by raison_d'etre; 06-26-2012 at 12:11 AM..
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