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Old 06-27-2012, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,316,478 times
Reputation: 441

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
For what it is worth, I am an atheist more like you, Raison. There are famous atheists like us like Daniel Dennett. Not all of us are of the Bill Maher variety atheist.

Just as I don't want the militant atheists criticizing me for not being militant, I don't criticize the militants for being militant. It doesn't usually work anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynight View Post
Thank you. In any group you will have others who are more militant than others.
I think you're both right. It seems you will have ignorance and extremists no matter what position you take. I guess it is a lost cause and I should just work on speaking louder than the extremists and show not all atheists are arrogant and ignorant.
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:21 PM
 
3,402 posts, read 2,772,188 times
Reputation: 1325
Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I think you're both right. It seems you will have ignorance and extremists no matter what position you take. I guess it is a lost cause and I should just work on speaking louder than the extremists and show not all atheists are arrogant and ignorant.
I take your point about civility, but I can't help but think that the problem may be a bit overstated.

I mean, in real life not internet forums, I just don't see a lot of atheist aggression and nastiness. Even Dawkins and Hitchens are generally polite, if sometimes a bit acerbic, and they get viewed as the devil incarnate. The only things I can think that might be what you are thinking of are some of the American Atheist billboards, and maybe comics/satirists like Ricky Jervais or Bill Mahr. I think that for many theists, just expressing a position of non-theism at all is threatening. I don't recall what your religious background was, but in mine, I was very thoroughly indoctrinated with the idea that there is some sort of vast conspiracy of atheists, particularly in science and in government, who we just waiting to outlaw Christianity (other religions would be fine, because they were all of the devil anyway), and cart us all into concentration camps. You don't have to try to be offensive to folks like that, your very existence is offense enough.

Is there some particular things you have observed in RL that cause you to react this strongly, or is it mostly what you read on the internet? Most of the snark I have seen comes from internet forums, but that is just the nature of the internet. It is part of the price you pay for anonymous speech.The upside is being able to speak your mind, and have these sorts of discussions without fear that it will damage RL personal or professional relationships.

While I do think that greater civility is not a bad thing, I also am very proud of our atheist extremists. Very few other worldviews have extremists who's failing is incivility. If our fringe element is hurling insults and sarcasm instead of bullets and bombs, we are not doing to badly.
-NoCapo
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:44 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 4,152,787 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I agree, we have the right to judge anyone we want. But to what end? What good does it do to judge something that doesn't effect us? We also have to realize that we can't hold everyone to the same standards. Just look at how school is done. We assume that because of a persons age they should be at a certain level of education. Some people develop and learn differently. It's like judging a fish on it's ability to climb a tree.
Your attitude towards the religious is insulting. Because they are too stupid to see, we must treat them like children. I'm going to treat them like adults thank you. I would also suggest you stop looking down on the religious with your nose up in the air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
By all means say it, just don't judge them for something they haven't done. Critique their scriptures all you want, but until they do something to cause harm or evil, what's the point in judging their overall beliefs?
If they call themselves muslims, am I not to assume they follow the teaching of muslims?!?! If their text call for evil actions, and they openly support theses texts, I think it's right to call them out on it.
If they want to continue to claim, that muhammad is the perfect muslims, and all muslims should try to emulate him, then I can show them why this is moral wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
The problem I think we are having is that you are all simply saying what you can do. I am asking why do you do it? Give me a freaking reason for being arrogant, intolerant while asking for tolerance, demanding respect when you give none. We atheists claim to embrace reason and logic, yet some show otherwise. We claim we aren't the ignorant ones yet some show how much they are.
Here we go again. Your suggestion that 'people should just shut the hell up and let these lunatics do whatever they want'. No, that's not going to happen.
Critiquing ideas, is now upcoming equivalent of arrogant and intolerant. You are deluding yourself, if you think critiquing ideas and especially the atrocities I've mention in the previous post, is becoming of intolerance or arrogance..
I will never demand my opinions and views to be protected against criticism, especially under the foolish idea of 'respect'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I guess I just have to accept that some atheists just don't use logic and reason, that some just aren't as attentive as I am, that some just choose not to understand. I just have to accept that some just use atheism to replace a would be religious view to spread their hate and intolerance.
I have never understood this idea, that critiquing scripture and religious fanatics is intolerant. Seems to me, you throw out the world 'intolerant' in attempt to silence critics.
I've recognize a pattern of people who attempt to do this. These people, including yourself do it when they no longer have an argument to stand on.


You seem to have this crazy idea, that if someone believes something, that no one should be allow to critic them.

Offensive Ideas - YouTube
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:53 PM
 
16,294 posts, read 28,417,662 times
Reputation: 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
For what it is worth, I am an atheist more like you, Raison. There are famous atheists like us like Daniel Dennett. Not all of us are of the Bill Maher variety atheist.

Just as I don't want the militant atheists criticizing me for not being militant, I don't criticize the militants for being militant. It doesn't usually work anyway.
Then that separates you from Raison.

Nor am I a militant atheist, but merely freedom fighter, opposed to ignorance of long dead goat herders imposing itself into society, law, and government today. Goat herders that came along not long after the wheel was invented and still thought the world was flat should have no impact on life today, yet many cling to this ignorance with the tenacity of a rabid pit bull. You can't fix stupid, but if you don't oppose it then expect to be ruled by the stupid.
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,612 posts, read 4,869,683 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I should just work on speaking louder than the extremists and show not all atheists are arrogant and ignorant.
If that is what you do, then people will think you are arrogant and ignorant.

Remember what Bob Dylan said:

"In a soldier’s stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I’d become my enemy
In the instant that I preach"
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,881,386 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
You can't fix stupid, but if you don't oppose it then expect to be ruled by the stupid.
I oppose ignorance. In a recent thread I spent some time correcting a theist about how the brain works. Although I am direct, I critique their ideas not their person. But, to each their own approach. I am fine with each atheist responding to others as they choose. I just wanted to clarify that one can oppose ignorance without being acerbic.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:16 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,316,478 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I mean, in real life not internet forums, I just don't see a lot of atheist aggression and nastiness. Even Dawkins and Hitchens are generally polite, if sometimes a bit acerbic, and they get viewed as the devil incarnate. The only things I can think that might be what you are thinking of are some of the American Atheist billboards, and maybe comics/satirists like Ricky Jervais or Bill Mahr. I think that for many theists, just expressing a position of non-theism at all is threatening. I don't recall what your religious background was, but in mine, I was very thoroughly indoctrinated with the idea that there is some sort of vast conspiracy of atheists, particularly in science and in government, who we just waiting to outlaw Christianity (other religions would be fine, because they were all of the devil anyway), and cart us all into concentration camps. You don't have to try to be offensive to folks like that, your very existence is offense enough.
I do agree with you on this. I love it when someone on Facebook posts a bible quote and nobody says a word, not even an AMEN! But when I post something even hinting at an atheist tone, I get comments saying I am insensitive or bashing their beliefs. Because I don't want to disappoint them, I respond and if it results in debate I will go back after it is over and delete all my comments so all people see is theirs.

Quote:
Is there some particular things you have observed in RL that cause you to react this strongly, or is it mostly what you read on the internet? Most of the snark I have seen comes from internet forums, but that is just the nature of the internet. It is part of the price you pay for anonymous speech.The upside is being able to speak your mind, and have these sorts of discussions without fear that it will damage RL personal or professional relationships.
On the internet I can somewhat understand this. The internet has the ability to turn a nerd who is pick on at school become an online bully. The experiences I am mostly relating to is in RL personal and profession settings.

Quote:
While I do think that greater civility is not a bad thing, I also am very proud of our atheist extremists. Very few other worldviews have extremists who's failing is incivility. If our fringe element is hurling insults and sarcasm instead of bullets and bombs, we are not doing to badly.
-NoCapo
I would have to somewhat agree there. If the biggest bomb we drop is the F bomb, we are doing great.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,316,478 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Your attitude towards the religious is insulting. Because they are too stupid to see, we must treat them like children. I'm going to treat them like adults thank you. I would also suggest you stop looking down on the religious with your nose up in the air.
Umm, Didn't call them stupid. People learn in different ways and speeds. In the standard school setting I got mostly C's and D's. In a college setting where there is somewhat more freedom I got mostly A's. So, not understanding something or simply not having the ability to understand something in it's current form does not make you stupid.


Quote:
If they call themselves muslims, am I not to assume they follow the teaching of muslims?!?! If their text call for evil actions, and they openly support theses texts, I think it's right to call them out on it. If they want to continue to claim, that muhammad is the perfect muslims, and all muslims should try to emulate him, then I can show them why this is moral wrong.
Yes because all people of religious faith follow their religious texts letter for letter.

Quote:
Here we go again. Your suggestion that 'people should just shut the hell up and let these lunatics do whatever they want'. No, that's not going to happen.
Critiquing ideas, is now upcoming equivalent of arrogant and intolerant. You are deluding yourself, if you think critiquing ideas and especially the atrocities I've mention in the previous post, is becoming of intolerance or arrogance..
I will never demand my opinions and views to be protected against criticism, especially under the foolish idea of 'respect'.
And again you read things into what I say when I haven't actually said that. I am not saying to shut up and allow them to do whatever they want. I am saying that we need to learn to hold our tongue. You can speak all you want, but unless you are actually saying something worth listening to, most will ignore it or find you arrogant or ignorant. Have you even been reading my posts? It seems you have not.

Quote:
I have never understood this idea, that critiquing scripture and religious fanatics is intolerant. Seems to me, you throw out the world 'intolerant' in attempt to silence critics.
I've recognize a pattern of people who attempt to do this. These people, including yourself do it when they no longer have an argument to stand on.
How can you judge something you don't fully understanding? If a judge just refused to see all evidence and didn't allow both sides to speak, and still made a judgement, everyone would find this odd. You can't judge something if you lack the knowledge to do so.

Quote:
You seem to have this crazy idea, that if someone believes something, that no one should be allow to critic them.

Offensive Ideas - YouTube
Where are you pulling these out of? Where have I said we can't judge them or even criticize them? If you are judging them only on facts and free of unnecessary opinionated garbage that serves no purpose than to make yourself seem more important or smarter.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:33 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,316,478 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Then that separates you from Raison.

Nor am I a militant atheist, but merely freedom fighter, opposed to ignorance of long dead goat herders imposing itself into society, law, and government today. Goat herders that came along not long after the wheel was invented and still thought the world was flat should have no impact on life today, yet many cling to this ignorance with the tenacity of a rabid pit bull. You can't fix stupid, but if you don't oppose it then expect to be ruled by the stupid.
Yes I do criticize the militant. Just as I expect the friendly Christian/Muslim/overall religious to criticize the extremist(militant) Christians/Muslims/overall religious.

You can oppose it. But if all either side is doing is sticking out their tongue with thumbs in their ears wiggling their fingers, nothing will change.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:36 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,316,478 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
I oppose ignorance. In a recent thread I spent some time correcting a theist about how the brain works. Although I am direct, I critique their ideas not their person. But, to each their own approach. I am fine with each atheist responding to others as they choose. I just wanted to clarify that one can oppose ignorance without being acerbic.
I also oppose ignorance, I just choose to speak up about those who are showing their ignorance. I do agree that we shouldn't critique the person, just their ideas.
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