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Old 10-14-2012, 07:29 PM
 
3,574 posts, read 4,171,078 times
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I had to start a new thread because I read Hiker's post in another thread and thought it deserved its own discussion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
People who believe in a god are not stupid. They just have a different idea of the world than we do.
Hiker, I know you have a "live and let live" approach to those who choose to delude themselves with religion, but I have to respectfully disagree with the statement above. Perhaps your son's "born again" status has softened your view of intelligent design proponents, but try to see it objectively...

Not only are believers (as a whole) empircally less intelligent than Atheists (as has been shown in studies referenced in another thread), but when a human willfully suspends disbelief for expediency or "happiness," they are purposely rejecting intelligence. It's more than just having a different idea about the world, it's about destroying science, logic and reason on purpose... that is, by any reasonable estimation:stupid.

A member of my family is a scientist with an exceedingly high IQ. Off the charts. Yet, I consider him pretty dumb because despite his ability to articulate many theories in chemistry and physics, he can't fully explain why he still devoutly Catholic. He rejects all magical thinking except for one big lie. It's like a huge blind spot in logic in his brain. How can rejection of facts be anything less than willfully "stupid?"
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:51 PM
 
40,039 posts, read 26,715,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logline View Post
A member of my family is a scientist with an exceedingly high IQ. Off the charts. Yet, I consider him pretty dumb because despite his ability to articulate many theories in chemistry and physics, he can't fully explain why he still devoutly Catholic. He rejects all magical thinking except for one big lie. It's like a huge blind spot in logic in his brain. How can rejection of facts be anything less than willfully "stupid?"
I won't address the self-congratulatory intellectual bigotry in your characterization of all believers as dumber than atheists. Your own family has a member that puts the lie to it. There is a range of knowledge and intellect that is vulnerable to unwarranted certainty about the role of science and empiricism in understanding our reality. It is that range I refer to as the one encompassed by the expression "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Below that range religion is a safe harbor and blind faith a comfort. Within that range atheism can easily SEEM to be the more intelligent choice. But beyond that range Theism (devoid of all the religious nonsense) is the preferred intelligent choice. Bottom line . . . you just don't know enough about our reality to get beyond an arrogant disdain for believers and a stupid belief in a Godless reality.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 10-14-2012 at 08:59 PM..
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,762,827 times
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Evil=Stupidity. Some just don't have the metaphysical talent to even come close to understanding the God factor....Most atheists imaging themselves as being sophisticates ...that they are above the crowd of "believers" - well you are probably correct...that you are brighter than most blind faith types...but I am a believer also and am nothing like the "religious" people you are used too....I am more intelligent than 99.9% of atheists..I know there is an intelligent force that is the ALL MIGHTY...and I am not going to have a debate with an atheist here- that would be like trying to teach a monkey...sorry- no debate for you.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Is there any empirical data that shows a correlation between Intelligence and Religious belief/disbelief?
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,111,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logline View Post
It's like a huge blind spot in logic in his brain. How can rejection of facts be anything less than willfully "stupid?"
What facts does your family member reject?

I don't think logic has anything to do with belief or disbelief in a god.

When I used logic to prove math theorems, we would make precise assumptions and then use logic to prove another statement is true. I have no idea what assumptions we could make that would let us logically prove a god does or does not exist.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Is there any empirical data that shows a correlation between Intelligence and Religious belief/disbelief?
I just found one. HERE


Which at first glace seems to support the OP as it is very consistent that Atheism increases as the average IQ of a nation increases.

But looking at the raw data on the site that seems to hold Up until the Average IQ of the nation reaches 98 at which the percentage of Atheism begins to drop in many countries.

For Example.

Vietnam with an average IQ of 94 is 81% Atheist

Australia with an average IQ of 98 has 25% Atheists

China with an Avearage IQ of 105 has 12% Atheists

Italy with an average IQ of 102 has 6% Atheists
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:11 PM
 
3,574 posts, read 4,171,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I just found one. HERE


Which at first glace seems to support the OP as it is very consistent that Atheism increases as the average IQ of a nation increases.

But looking at the raw data on the site that seems to hold Up until the Average IQ of the nation reaches 98 at which the percentage of Atheism begins to drop in many countries.

For Example.

Vietnam with an average IQ of 94 is 81% Atheist

Australia with an average IQ of 98 has 25% Atheists

China with an Avearage IQ of 105 has 12% Atheists

Italy with an average IQ of 102 has 6% Atheists
You cherry-picked 4 examples out of 137 and didn't include all of the countries with the highest IQs. You left out:

Singapore: IQ of 108, 13% atheist
South Korea: IQ of 106, 30% atheist
Japan: IQ of 105, 65% atheist! (highest rate of self-reported atheists)
Taiwan: IQ of 105, 24% atheist

Conversely, at the bottom of the barrel, the countries which literally qualify as mentally retarded (clinically, it means an IQ under 70) include:
Niger: IQ of 69, 0.5% atheist
Nigeria: IQ of 69, 0.5% atheist
Barundi: IQ of 69, 0.5% atheist
Somalia: IQ of 68, 0.5% atheist
Liberia: IQ of 67, 0.5% atheist
Zimbabwe: IQ of 66, 4% atheist
Senegal: IQ of 66, 0.5% atheist
Central African Rep.: IQ of 64, 1.5% atheist
Sierra Leone: IQ of 64, 1.5% atheist
Cameroon: IQ of 63, 0.5% atheist

The evidence is pretty clear... highly religious people (as a group) are clinically retarded.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Just found some interesting things to compare. The 10 highest IQ nations and the 10 most atheistic countries.


Top ten countries for % of Atheists

Sweden 46 - 85%

Vietnam 81%

Denmark 43 - 80%

Norway 31 - 72%

Japan 64 - 65%

Czech Republic 54 - 61%

Finland 28 - 60%

France 43 - 54%

South Korea 30 - 52%

Estonia 49%

SOURCE


Countries with highest IQ top 10

1 Hong Kong 107

2 South Korea 106

3 Japan 105

4 Taiwan 104

5 Singapore 103

6 Austria 102

6 Germany 102

6 Italy 102

6 Netherlands 102

10 Sweden 101

10 Switzerland 101

SOURCE


Notice of the 10 countries with the highest % of Atheists only Sweden, Japan and South Korea are in the top 10 for Intelligence.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:23 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,800 posts, read 17,703,198 times
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I think people should stop bashing others because they don't agree with their religious beliefs.... It's called discrimination.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:26 PM
 
3,574 posts, read 4,171,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
What facts does your family member reject?

I don't think logic has anything to do with belief or disbelief in a god.

When I used logic to prove math theorems, we would make precise assumptions and then use logic to prove another statement is true. I have no idea what assumptions we could make that would let us logically prove a god does or does not exist.
He believes in the virgin birth, the resurrection... essentially the biggest lies in the bible... the "hits." It definitely takes an enormous jump in logic to believe these things are empirically true as written. He even had his marriage blessed by the Pope himself! (Apparently you can do that long distance or something...weird).

The amazing thing to me is that this man uses the same, rational, logical approach to every other thing in his life... just like you do with your math theorems. No magical thinking except for his religion. It's amazing to see the enormous cognitive dissonance inside his head when I take that logical approach to explain how those miracles could not have happened. He simply can't explain his inconsistency when pressed for an explanation. It's like his brain shuts down and eyes glaze over when asked how he can believe these things.
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