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I'm still seeing this as an emotional appeal to a particular case to let religion of paying tax.
I already mentioned why particular deserving cases can make a case for help or preservation or whatever, but maintaining the law for everyone as a matter of law being represented as being callous still comes across to me as as an emotional appeal to a particular case in an effort to argue to the general exception.
I don't think we should fall for it. A tax on Churches should become Law -then let particular cases apply for exception consideration.
I have no problem with that, either. I'm not in favor of money-making operations hiding behind the pretense of being in existence for spiritual reasons either. The original Christian church was based on adherents taking care of one another and sharing their common property. If a church is making a profit, let it be taxed. If they are making a profit and using the proceeds to feed and clothe the poor, let them get the proper deductions for that.
And while this sounds all fine and dandy on the face of it, one must consider: by allowing the church to be taxed, are they then not allowed to openly donate (undoubtedly) vast sums of money in political races?
Were I queen for a day, only individuals--not corporations, special interests, churches, or any other group, just individuals--would be limited to giving one dollar to each candidate they support.
Then all religious organizations would have to meet the requirements of 501(c) in the tax code to be considered exempt from federal taxes. Otherwise, they would be taxed.
Well, anyone who thinks churches (Or other religions) should be taxed understand neither a) churches nor b) taxes.
First, despite what you might think, the vast majority of churches are shoestring operations that rarely, if ever, do anything but break even. The clergy make a pittance compared to what an equivalent leader would make in the private sector. On the odd chance that a church does indeed have a surplus, that money is automatically either given to charitable organizations or shoved into a trust or foundation in case the church's roof caves in or some kind of similar emergency. As someone who has served on the vestry of my established Episcopal church, I can tell you that we have to make tough economic choices every day.
Second, government cannot even begin to hope to provide the services to the surrounding community that a church does. In our church, we have a permanent mission to help the homeless, GED programs, a summer camp for underprivileged children, a nutritional clinic in Haiti, food banks for the hungry, a mission that supplies low-income families with appliances and clothing, and the list goes on and on. That doesn't even include the 15 or so charities that get direct stipends from my church such as the local YMCA, a shelter for abused women, and so on. The church only provides the vehicle through which these efforts work, all of which are unqualified goods for the community.
Third, even though my church owns some rental property, the revenue from that property goes directly into the general fund budget. The total value of the property is inconsequential to your argument since the church would only realize that money in the event of an actual sale. After all, you don't tax someone's stocks until they actually sell them. Why would you do as much with a church?
Finally, how exactly would you tax the churches? On profit, right? Well, guess what? After the church's employees, bank notes, electricity, etc. etc. are paid, there's almost always nothing left over to tax. Why? Because it's a NON-PROFIT. Or will you simply tax them on total tithes taken in? I mean, are you going to tax the Sierra Club or the Susan G. Komen Foundation based on their contributions? Those are organizations that rake in gobs of money, far more than any televangelist could ever hope to see, and have investments as well to ensure the continued financial strength of their organizations. Yet I don't see any clamor to tax those guys either.
So unless you're wanting to overturn the entire tax code of the United States and gig every non-profit organization in the country from the Campfire Girls to the American Cancer Society to the local symphony and everybody else in between, then you might want to hold off on taxing churches. Because simply having a vendetta against organized religion is not sufficient reason to do so.
Well, anyone who thinks churches (Or other religions) should be taxed understand neither a) churches nor b) taxes.
First, despite what you might think, the vast majority of churches are shoestring operations that rarely, if ever, do anything but break even. The clergy make a pittance compared to what an equivalent leader would make in the private sector. On the odd chance that a church does indeed have a surplus, that money is automatically either given to charitable organizations or shoved into a trust or foundation in case the church's roof caves in or some kind of similar emergency. As someone who has served on the vestry of my established Episcopal church, I can tell you that we have to make tough economic choices every day.
While *some* churches operate on a shoestring and it is true that *some* clergy are not well paid, there are many churches that profit mightily and these churches only spend a pittance of their income on real charity. The money is often well-hidden. The big examples are the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church. There are others as well - the Christian Evangelical megachurches. And then there is Scientology.
Once a religion earns federal (as in IRS) recognition, it is freed from nearly all reporting requirements, even the rigorous standards most nonprofits must comply with.
While *some* churches operate on a shoestring and it is true that *some* clergy are not well paid, there are many churches that profit mightily and these churches only spend a pittance of their income on real charity. The money is often well-hidden. The big examples are the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church. There are others as well - the Christian Evangelical megachurches. And then there is Scientology.
Hey, I'm no fan of the Catholic church, the Mormons, or megachurches. But the article itself had no real factual data to go on, just estimates and suppositions. Guessing isn't the same thing as marshaling facts.
What's more, the author seems to make the same error as the people on this thread. Just because a church owns assets doesn't mean it derives huge amounts of revenue from said assets. Heck, in the hit piece you quoted, it even said that a large part of the LDS's assets stem from the church locations it owns. Well, if you don't have a church in a community, where exactly is the congregation going to meet? As far as the businesses the Mormons own, I'm fairly certain that the revenue from those business flows into the church, but that doesn't necessarily translate into huge surpluses of money once staffers have been paid, bills paid, buildings maintained, etc. I mean, do you own stocks of your own? If you simply hold onto those assets, are you taxed on the total value of your holdings? Of course not. You are only taxed when you sell those assets, or on the dividend income you receive, not the assets themselves.
As far as Catholic Churches are concerned, the article itself said that there are dioceses that have money and dioceses that are poor. Just because one diocese is financial stable because of adroit money management does not mean that all of them will be? And the evangelical megachurches aren't that plentiful or wealthy either, even in this day and age. While Joel Osteen's Church of What's Happening Now has revenue, Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral is broke.
And, of course, you failed to note the Evangelical Lutheran Church mentioned in the article which makes modest revenue has only a million left over after expenses are met. I'm fairly certain the Lutherans, a sober and frugal bunch, put that money into a trust in the event they fell on hard times, just the way any wise non-profit would do. These are legitimate movements that are fully recognized and sanctioned by the IRS. The money doesn't go to Mercedes Benzes or private jets.
Nope, the truth is that the large majority of churches do indeed operate with very little left over at the end of the fiscal year, and that money isn't lining the pockets of the clergy. Taxing all churches because of the excesses of a very small number is grossly unfair to the vast number of those who go about serving their communities with humility, diligence, and economy. What's more, taxing churches just because means that you automatically have to tax all non-profits in the same way, with unintended consequences that would prove staggering. I mean, it's one thing to dislike religious faith. But to, in effect, rewrite the tax code so that every non-profit in the country is destructive and forces society to pay a terrible price for what is, in effect, a vendetta.
Just look at the huge buildings. The upkeep on those is ridiculous. Why shouldn't the money from the commercial enterprises be taxed when what they are using the money on is really not charitable, but maintaining pomp and circumstance?
Just look at the huge buildings. The upkeep on those is ridiculous. Why shouldn't the money from the commercial enterprises be taxed when what they are using the money on is really not charitable, but maintaining pomp and circumstance?
Oh, now you're just nitpicking. Heck, why not stroll into a charity such as the Red Cross or the Sierra Club and insist that their corporate headquarters be relocated to a corrugated tin building on the outskirts of town?
And, what's more, your carping is based on nothing. So are you saying that my beautiful 130-year-old Episcopal Church, an architectural treasure with amazing stained-glass windows, should fall into disarray because of how you think we should spend our money? Forget the fact that somewhere close to 30% of our tithes go directly to charitable causes outside the walls of our church. Forget the fact that our church acts as the organizing agent for literally thousands upon thousands of man-hours of charitable activities that couldn't even begin to be affordable for a government agency -- far, far more than we could ever hope to receive in tithes. Forget the fact that our church performs invaluable services to its parishioners in times of trouble and anguish. Forget the fact that our church staff makes a fraction of what they would working in the private sector.
Nope. The only thing that matters is you disapprove that we might spend a small fraction of our money on a nice organ and some choir robes. Surely you realize how petty that comes across.
If the argument is that Church's don't have a profit to tax, then what is the argument in not including the church as being taxable? They won't pay anything anyway.
My guess is the "no profit" would never live up to actual scrutiny.
If the argument is that Church's don't have a profit to tax, then what is the argument in not including the church as being taxable? They won't pay anything anyway.
My guess is the "no profit" would never live up to actual scrutiny.
Well, as someone who is a pretty savvy businessman and as someone who has sat through many meetings of my church finance committee, I can say with conviction that you're wrong.
If the argument is that Church's don't have a profit to tax, then what is the argument in not including the church as being taxable? They won't pay anything anyway.
My guess is the "no profit" would never live up to actual scrutiny.
I think that with rare exceptions it would. there are far more small churches operating on a shoestring budget than there are of the big ones with the TV shows and huge cathedrals.
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