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Old 12-02-2012, 01:13 AM
 
12,540 posts, read 12,870,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunnor View Post
Constitution may be changed soon if the majority or congress decides...
Never.

First, what you suggest is so far from what the Founding Fathers planned for that it's preposterous. They wrote the Constitution to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. They specifically wrote it to separate church and state, and that separation was intended to be a cornerstone of our government.

Second, politicians know that the electorate understands this. Maybe a few looney-tunes in the Deep South would try to propose such a ridiculous amendment, but no one else in Congress would take it seriously, never mind a 2/3 majority of states. In case you missed the trends, the U.S. is moving leftward in several areas, with the increasing number of states where gay marriage is now legal. Likewise, the number of Americans who consider their religion the only way to some alleged salvation is on the decline. More Americans may identify with Christianity than any other form of religion, but what you seem to be overlooking is that the vast majority of those Christians are not evangelicals. Now when you have the majority of Americans acknowledging religious diversity and saying that their way is not the only way, do you really think they are going to support some kind of religious dictatorship via Constitutional amendment?

Third, in the unlikely event that states attempt to do this for themselves in their state constitutions, there would be so many lawsuits brought by groups like the ACLU and others that it probably wouldn't make it out of state courts as a state matter, never mind past the Supreme Court as a Constitutional one.

If you want to live in a theocracy, you should go live somewhere else. What you don't understand about the United States, its people, and its government is a lot.

 
Old 12-02-2012, 01:25 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 4,904,358 times
Reputation: 1338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
I say we get the 12 days of Christmas, the 8 days of Hanukkah, the week of Kwanzaa, and, in accordance with Pastafarianism, Holiday, which doesn't really have a day but is important to celebrate in recognition of being touched by His Noodly Appendage.

R'amen.
Yes, I too would like to see Recognition Day (a yearly celebration of the day you recognized his noodly touch) and also the mandated celebration of Holiday (which doesn't really have a day).

If you'll wouldn't mind, I'd also like to see the recognition of Radical Honesty Day circa exactly six months away from April Fools Day, or Christmas. Not Easter because no one is lied to during Easter.
 
Old 12-02-2012, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 90,504,141 times
Reputation: 29499
No.
 
Old 12-02-2012, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,801,791 times
Reputation: 8791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
Never.

First, what you suggest is so far from what the Founding Fathers planned for that it's preposterous. They wrote the Constitution to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. They specifically wrote it to separate church and state, and that separation was intended to be a cornerstone of our government.

Second, politicians know that the electorate understands this. Maybe a few looney-tunes in the Deep South would try to propose such a ridiculous amendment, but no one else in Congress would take it seriously, never mind a 2/3 majority of states. In case you missed the trends, the U.S. is moving leftward in several areas, with the increasing number of states where gay marriage is now legal. Likewise, the number of Americans who consider their religion the only way to some alleged salvation is on the decline. More Americans may identify with Christianity than any other form of religion, but what you seem to be overlooking is that the vast majority of those Christians are not evangelicals. Now when you have the majority of Americans acknowledging religious diversity and saying that their way is not the only way, do you really think they are going to support some kind of religious dictatorship via Constitutional amendment?

Third, in the unlikely event that states attempt to do this for themselves in their state constitutions, there would be so many lawsuits brought by groups like the ACLU and others that it probably wouldn't make it out of state courts as a state matter, never mind past the Supreme Court as a Constitutional one.

If you want to live in a theocracy, you should go live somewhere else. What you don't understand about the United States, its people, and its government is a lot.
Thank you for stating what so many of us believe in such an eloquent manner.
 
Old 12-02-2012, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,145 posts, read 19,581,075 times
Reputation: 14025
Wow... apparently this topic weighs heavily on somebody's mind...

I would accept Satan day or Hitler day or Christian Fundamentalist day so long as I got the day off from work. What the calendar says is not nearly as important as what I do with the day.
 
Old 12-02-2012, 10:50 AM
 
2,482 posts, read 4,974,916 times
Reputation: 4525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Wow... apparently this topic weighs heavily on somebody's mind...

I would accept Satan day or Hitler day or Christian Fundamentalist day so long as I got the day off from work. What the calendar says is not nearly as important as what I do with the day.
^I'm with this one. Don't care what it represents, if it's a day off, I'll take it. We work too much as it is. I don't get Veteran's day off, but I'm a Veteran, that irks me. Christmas is fully of Pagan traditions anyway, so I'm not bothered by the Christians trying to celebrate it as their holiday, it simply reinforces the hypocrisy of their religion.
My company let's us have Columbus day off, which is an utterly ridiculous holiday, and although it p*sses me off, I don't protest because I'll take any day off I can get. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to walk into my neighbors house and claim I discovered his 60" LCD Flatscreen HD TV.
 
Old 12-02-2012, 12:11 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,762 posts, read 18,410,281 times
Reputation: 31937
I don't think there is a war against Christmas so much as there is a certain segment of the population falling over themselves to be perceived as paragons of political correctness and ultra-inclusiveness.

That said, most of the symbology of Christmas, minus the nativity scene, that are deemed so offensive are properly Yule symbols having nothing to do with Christianity. Furthermore, Yule, even in pre-Christian Germanic society, was essentially a secular holiday. Thus, the most common symbols creating so much social strife are secular anyway.

I have no problem with a secular holiday being nationally recognized and celebrated, symbols and all, in the public square.
 
Old 12-02-2012, 12:53 PM
 
12,540 posts, read 12,870,634 times
Reputation: 28920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Wow... apparently this topic weighs heavily on somebody's mind...

I would accept Satan day or Hitler day or Christian Fundamentalist day so long as I got the day off from work. What the calendar says is not nearly as important as what I do with the day.

That reminds me of the brouhaha in Arizona years ago, when people were protesting Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. I thought, "Man, you have to be some racist not to want to take a day off."
 
Old 12-02-2012, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,618 posts, read 11,562,241 times
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Default In summary....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly4u View Post
I love Holidays.
I like the presents, the food, the drink, the day off from work, the drink,
the presents again, seeing my family,
I love Holidays!
I say Happy Holidays! to everyone I see.
I want holidays!
I want MORE holidays!
The Holiday is what you make of it, and you can see what
I make of it. LOL!
So I say, Always HAVE Christmas, and lets have more!
Agreed on, but frantic, fundy Christian do obviously want to claim it as having always been theirs (nope; sorry. Pre-Christ, it was simply a wide-spread and very wanton Pagan festival near the winter solstice...) , and then have it papally formalized, including what you CAN'T do! No drinking, no swearing, just profligate prayer sessions seeking an imaginary salvation.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunnor View Post
So you disagree with David Silver, the president of American Atheists?
Hey: as we've told you time and again, Nunnor the Ambitious, atheism is not an organized "anything", not a cult, not a religion, not even an organization. So, just because these guys have done that, there's also organizations for the Protection of Black Sheep, or for Zany Single Moms or The National Federation for Decency who have called for the stoning of a captive whale who inadvertently killed a trainer. "God has to have His justice for the taking of a superior human's life by a "lesser beast"! they yammer.

LiveLeak.com - Nutty Religious Organization Calls for Whale to be Stoned to Death for Killing Trainer

Or the appropriately named "Nutty Farmers of Farmington".... WTF? Then there's The Nutty Putty Cave group. Don't ask...

In your spiritually upside down world, these would all have to be called a religion. By far though, the vast majority of atheists simply don't give a hoot. They have simply seen more than enough evidence, or lack of it, for there being any entity-Gods at all. We also know that the huge majority of average American citizens do not even have a college degree, are NOT prone to objective and critical thinking, so their numbers mean littel to a thinking person. After all, didn't Christians once fervently believe in a flat earth, or in an instant Creation week, or that dinosaurs were plants by God to test our faith, and that Jesus had a pet T-Rex as a kid?

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.49992...85647&pid=15.1

Rather, most slothful Americans want, obviously, to just return,m unscathed, to the pre-2008 free credit lifestyle, to have it continue without interruption. And if not, then they'll take last-ditch Salvation (cue the trumpets and singing angels chorus here...) so they go to church and bow in sanctimonious prayer. ("Oh God, have mercy on my bank accounts, and help me to win the Lottery...")

You yourself even preach it'll all come to an end, and hopefully, you fervently pray, in your lifetime, soz you can ascend to the heavens assisted by Jesus and a merry band of singing angels.

I'm here to tell you that you'll die ljust ike the rest of us, but in that last greying moment, just as you close your now frantic eyes for the last time (you know, since there is no light to run to...) it was all a huge waste of your time, that you therefore missed out on a lot of things we simple atheists had the time to enjoy.

Atheist organizations as absolute spokespersons for all of us? And on the Christmas holidays? You wish.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
It's an attempt to make their religion sound special. You know, everyone else has a religion (roll eyes in contempt at their silliness) but I have a personal relationship with the creator of the known universe (insert smug look here).
It has certainly been a persistent bug in their philosophical soup that's for sure. Whenever the subject comes up, the typical Christian smirking arrogance coupled with their absolutist statements about "The True Meaning Of Christmas!" come bubbling up. Too bad it's entirely incorrect, huh?

[
Quote:
QUOTE=agnostic soldier;27151183]I'd rather keep Christmas as a national holiday. It's a day off from work and an excuse to feast.
[/quote]

Oh come now, ag: it may be time, as I'm planning, to start my weight loss program from Dec. 10th on. Well,perhaps Dec. 25th. Boxing Day in Kanada you know... Whatever that means. Certainly NOT a Christian holiday. Yet.

[
Quote:
QUOTE=goldengrain;27157382]Schools in my area call it the Winter Break.
To be fair, every religion should have their holidays off.

etc.

Even the Japanese, not Christian, have a winter holiday in which they exchange gifts. It's a nice tradition.
[/quote]

Yup. And they manage to do it over there without the typical spiritual rancor. That's just part of our historically arrogant Yankee culture I suspect, coupled with the ardent desire by fundy Christians to claim it once and for all. Nope: T'ain't gonna happen, guys and girls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Relax,if Christmas wasn't a federal holiday it wouldn't mean you couldn't celebrate it, you could celebrate whatever you wanted.

√ That's the point, why would a country that isn't religious have a federal religious holiday? That's what the constitution is for, to keep that from happening to us.

√ If people like you had your way my kids would have to be praying to your God in school. I'm grateful they don't have to.

√ Let me ask you this. Why do you need Christmas to be recognized by the government?

√ What's the point of that if you're not trying to get this country to adopt Christian values throughout it's government and put laws into place to enforce it.

√ I know who you guys are, I've seen your documentaries. Tsk, tsk, shame on you.
Dittos and Kudos for what he said! Shame on fundies for trying to force their antiquated spirituality on anyone, least of all their once-naive and innocent kids! What a shame!

But in a tirade of unmistakable fanaticism, these statements come out. At last: we see nunnor's inner-most ideals: Stunning, and dangerous.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunnor View Post

Religious diversity is not that good, but cultural is.

√ ...America is culturally and historically a Christian nation.

√ Just because we have no official state church does not mean Christianity cannot be dominant.

√ We do tolerate other decorations of other religion in public.

Constitution may be changed soon if the majority or congress decides...
1) "Tolerate" other religions? why only "tolerate"? Why not just accept as you want us to with regard to rampant invasive Christianity?

2) Religious diversity is not good?

3) "...historically a Christian nation!"? In what specific ways?

4) Constitution be changed to say or reflect what, pray tell? A dominantly Christian cultural basis? Lord Help Us from such Stalinesque dictatorial actions! I can hear the cheering in the churchs now if such a wild-a$p fantasy were to ever take effect.

Having us atheists lined up in the streets for a good old public gunning down? It must make the ardent theist's mouths water!

(And, as noted above, the legal chaos for any nutty, zany Constitutional amendment would hold it up in court for, oh let's say, the next 200 years? At least. So don't be counting your special magic rosary beads just yet, Nunnor!)

Fortunately, it won't ever come to that. Too many well-armed rugged individualists and free-thinkers are out here, even amongst the basically Christian church goers. They would not tolerate any such a mandated spiritual takeover attempt, and the large, predominantly liberal-thinking (and thus ever-more atheistic) urban/city dwellers will NEVER vote for such a culturally retrograde action.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
My only problem with Christmas, besides the over-commercialization, is Christians insisting there's some vast war to eliminate Christmas.

God forbid they actually try to enjoy the holiday, which isn't going to even come close to disappearing in any of our lives.

If people are going to raise a stink about something concerning Christmas, I wish it would be the fact the Americans seem to be more concerned with buying each other the latest disposable gadgets instead of having a good time with friends and family. That's far more disturbing to me, as an atheist, than the fact that Christmas is religious in nature.
You've got it, Lamplight. In my opinion, the entirety of commercialist, materialist, accumulation-oriented "Gotta have it if we're going to survive another year. You only have a G3 phone? How do you even survive?" attitude. will be our cultural death-knell eventually, when the Chinese manufacturing culture dies off when we can no longer afford some latest Tinker Toy gadgetry (but built in China to really bad QC standars, not to mention the lead-based paints they use...).

I for one will welcome that moment, when N. America no longer supports such incessant Tom-Foolery. And also kicks sand in the face of the dreary and tiresome "I told You So" Christians who continue to gloat over their assumptive coming End-Times. (which ,btw, ain't gonna happen Nunnor, my child...)


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
Never.

First, what you suggest is so far from what the Founding Fathers planned for that it's preposterous.

Quote:
=rflmn(Hey, yah can't stop a single-minded girl from a'hopin' and a'prayin' can you, Lillac?)
√ They wrote the Constitution to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. They specifically wrote it to separate church and state, and that separation was intended to be a cornerstone of our government.

√ Second, politicians know that the electorate understands this. Maybe a few looney-tunes in the Deep South would try to propose such a ridiculous amendment, but no one else in Congress would take it seriously, never mind a 2/3 majority of states.

√ Now when you have the majority of Americans acknowledging religious diversity and saying that their way is not the only way, do you really think they are going to support some kind of religious dictatorship via Constitutional amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by laughing-rflmn
Yup! Nunnor does, and prays for it ever night I'm sure. Along with the End-Times to arrive sooner rather than later!)
√ Third, in the unlikely event that states attempt to do this for themselves in their state constitutions, there would be so many lawsuits brought by groups like the ACLU and others that it probably wouldn't make it out of state courts as a state matter, never mind past the Supreme Court as a Constitutional one.

If you want to live in a theocracy, you should go live somewhere else. What you don't understand about the United States, its people, and its government is a lot.
I'd suggest Nunnor try, say, Iran, or Pakistan, Or being a Christian in modern Russia, but not belonging to The Official Russian Orthodox/Gov'mint Church.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
I don't think there is a war against Christmas so much as there is a certain segment of the population falling over themselves to be perceived as paragons of political correctness and ultra-inclusiveness.

That said, most of the symbology of Christmas, minus the nativity scene, that are deemed so offensive are properly Yule symbols having nothing to do with Christianity. Furthermore, Yule, even in pre-Christian Germanic society, was essentially a secular holiday. Thus, the most common symbols creating so much social strife are secular anyway.

I have no problem with a secular holiday being nationally recognized and celebrated, symbols and all, in the public square.
Yup. What grieves the Christian mindset so very much is that simple statement that always surfaces this time of year, that Christmas is absolutely NOT a Christian event! They insist that it should be legally recognized as such, and then legally enforced. Sadly, it's historically documented that it has ALWAYS been a Pagan pre-Christ festival celebrating the return of lengthening days and warmth.

So until then, let's enjoy the mead, the women and "gay" men, and dance around some nicely decorated trees. And we can also ignore the later-add-on drama of some imaginary virgin birth, and Holy Lights in the Heavens (which astronomically speaking, was likely just a super-nova that is now pretty much accurately dated to those possible years...).

Leave Christmas to the individual's celebrationary preferences, and since it involves the majority of people on this planet,of vastly variant religions (or none at all!), it can be in any incantational or spiritual version, or properly mandated chanting for whatever the individual believes.
 
Old 12-02-2012, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,801,791 times
Reputation: 8791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
That reminds me of the brouhaha in Arizona years ago, when people were protesting Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. I thought, "Man, you have to be some racist not to want to take a day off."
The company that I worked for took a floating 'free choice' holiday away from us and moved it to MLK day
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