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Old 12-04-2012, 01:31 PM
 
Location: New York metropolitan area
1,316 posts, read 1,318,574 times
Reputation: 327

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
It is an accommodation to common sense.
The largest majority will take the day off anyway... so we may as well give it to them.
(having that time off paid is a whole other can of worms)
Exactly. Then you need to inform that to atheists and Jews who are against Christmas Day being a national holiday. They know that everyone would be taken off the holiday anyway, and it makes sense having it a federal holiday.

 
Old 12-04-2012, 01:47 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
29,704 posts, read 64,661,043 times
Reputation: 34604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunnor View Post
Then you need to inform that to atheists and Jews who are against Christmas Day being a national holiday.
They aren't against that.
They're against Christians asserting that their day off represents anything more than this...
specifically that there is any sort of official endorsement of their faith.

Focus on that distinction for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunnor View Post
You create the big controversy, and yet you blame it on us Christians making it up.
As Ronnie would say: There you go again.

The hyper sensitive Christians who interpret criticism...
 
Old 12-04-2012, 02:03 PM
 
Location: New York metropolitan area
1,316 posts, read 1,318,574 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
They aren't against that.
They're against Christians asserting that their day off represents anything more than this...
specifically that there is any sort of official endorsement of their faith...
Yes, they are against that. David Silverman (President of American Atheist) have clearly said that he does NOT want the government to observe Christmas Day as a national holiday, and there should be NO Christmas trees or anything that has the word "Christmas" on it because it says "Christ" on the word.

A Jewish lawyer was the first person to sue and take the federal government to court over observing Christmas Day as a federal holiday because according to him he though it's unconstitutional in 1999. Fortunately, the supreme court ruled against him.

Court Decision - Ganulin v. United States


david silverman on bill o'reilly - war on christmas - YouTube



Petition To Make Jewish Day of Atonement Yom Kippur A US National Holiday
http://www.change.org/petitions/unit...tional-holiday

^^ Jews trying to push the government to make "Yom Kippur" a federal holiday despite being only 2% of the population, which forced the majority to observe a tiny minorities religious holiday.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
20,966 posts, read 10,883,606 times
Reputation: 8379
Can someone explain exactly which personal freedoms have been denied in this "war "?

Are you not allowed to go to church?
Are you not allowed to have a tree?
Are nativity scenes illegal on private property?
Are you jailed for saying merry Christmas?

Stop whining, you can do as you please. And so can I.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 03:17 PM
 
3,577 posts, read 4,263,192 times
Reputation: 3084
What Nunnor sees as a "war on Christmas" is really just an Atheist supporting a document 1000x more important than any stupid bible: the U.S. Constitution.

Haven't you heard of separation between church and state? What makes you above the law, Nunnor? Are you not patriotic? Are you even American? I thought all Fox News watchers were super-patriotic and believed in America... guess not.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,414,728 times
Reputation: 4281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunnor View Post
I very rarely watch Fox News, or any other News channel in general.
If there was 'no war on Christmas', we wouldn't have made an argument about it. Everybody knows that Christmas is trying to be abolished as much as possible, especially the word itself, the traditional greeting, and many atheists/non-Christians trying to remove it from federal holiday list.

We're not stupid, and stop acting Christmas is not on attack. You create the big controversy, and yet you blame it on us Christians making it up.
You're a pathetic liar and a paranoid zealot, Nunnor.

Government endorsement of a particular religion is against the law. It's that simple. We all have the freedom to worship as we please, do as we please, and think as we please regarding religion (and most other things). The only "battle" here is to point out that things such as nativity scenes on public (tax-payer funded) property are an endorsement by the government of a very specific religion. It just so happens that the majority of these examples happen around Christmas time because Christmas is probably the biggest Christian holiday.

There is no war on Christmas. I have not been conscripted, drafted, or volunteered to join some army of atheists determined to eradicate Christmas. Analogously, you're taking a quibble over land boundaries and turning it into an attack on your entire nation.

Why can't you just be content with your religion abiding by the law? What makes you believe you have special privileges over the rest of the country or that you're above the law? You're not entitled to any of that because of your belief in the asinine and stupid.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
44,127 posts, read 19,303,631 times
Reputation: 19602
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
You're a pathetic liar and a paranoid zealot, Nunnor.

Government endorsement of a particular religion is against the law. It's that simple. We all have the freedom to worship as we please, do as we please, and think as we please regarding religion (and most other things). The only "battle" here is to point out that things such as nativity scenes on public (tax-payer funded) property are an endorsement by the government of a very specific religion. It just so happens that the majority of these examples happen around Christmas time because Christmas is probably the biggest Christian holiday.

There is no war on Christmas. I have not been conscripted, drafted, or volunteered to join some army of atheists determined to eradicate Christmas. Analogously, you're taking a quibble over land boundaries and turning it into an attack on your entire nation.

Why can't you just be content with your religion abiding by the law? What makes you believe you have special privileges over the rest of the country or that you're above the law? You're not entitled to any of that because of your belief in the asinine and stupid.
Troop...

I do not think you are advancing your cause when you indulge in virtual screaming at the opposition like you do above. In fact it tends to validate the idea that atheists really are at war with Christmas in the thoughts of the Christians. You are behaving like you are at war.

I'm a rationalist, subscribing to no theological beliefs, but the rational part of me does not insist on serial hostility with those of other beliefs. There is always room for peaceful compromise.

There are two facts to consider within this dynamic.
1) By Constitutional law, our government is not to establish a religion. What precisely that means and implies, we have been debating ever since and from time to time settling in the courts. It obviously does mean that our government is not to impose any religion on any citizen, but does it also obviously mean that Congress can't be opened with a prayer, or that the president can't light the national Christmas tree each year?
2) Despite the United States not being legally or officially a Christian nation, it remains that the majority of the people living here identify themselves as Christians.

In such a situation, it seems to me that the non Christians should be selective about where they pick their battles. When religion starts encroaching on the public education process, with school prayers or faith based "science" lessons, those are good places to stand up and resist. When religion opposes rational agendas such as assisted suicide or pro choice legislation, that is a good time to turn out and raise a defense.

When religion puts up some lights and a manger scene in honor of their beliefs....well, I just don't feel the threat. Why should we generate a lot of hostility with otherwise normal, nice people, over something this cosmetic and uncritical? It is throwing away political capital and credibility on a sideshow. It is making the other side angrier and more entrenched, making it less likely that they will see the reason and right behind the rational stance on the more important issues.

So....Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays to everyone who is celebrating something this month. You aren't offending me.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 07:34 PM
 
Location: New York metropolitan area
1,316 posts, read 1,318,574 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Troop...

I do not think you are advancing your cause when you indulge in virtual screaming at the opposition like you do above. In fact it tends to validate the idea that atheists really are at war with Christmas in the thoughts of the Christians. You are behaving like you are at war.

I'm a rationalist, subscribing to no theological beliefs, but the rational part of me does not insist on serial hostility with those of other beliefs. There is always room for peaceful compromise.

There are two facts to consider within this dynamic.
1) By Constitutional law, our government is not to establish a religion. What precisely that means and implies, we have been debating ever since and from time to time settling in the courts. It obviously does mean that our government is not to impose any religion on any citizen, but does it also obviously mean that Congress can't be opened with a prayer, or that the president can't light the national Christmas tree each year?
2) Despite the United States not being legally or officially a Christian nation, it remains that the majority of the people living here identify themselves as Christians.

In such a situation, it seems to me that the non Christians should be selective about where they pick their battles. When religion starts encroaching on the public education process, with school prayers or faith based "science" lessons, those are good places to stand up and resist. When religion opposes rational agendas such as assisted suicide or pro choice legislation, that is a good time to turn out and raise a defense.

When religion puts up some lights and a manger scene in honor of their beliefs....well, I just don't feel the threat. Why should we generate a lot of hostility with otherwise normal, nice people, over something this cosmetic and uncritical? It is throwing away political capital and credibility on a sideshow. It is making the other side angrier and more entrenched, making it less likely that they will see the reason and right behind the rational stance on the more important issues.

So....Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays to everyone who is celebrating something this month. You aren't offending me.
Thank You! I wish I could give you tons of rep
 
Old 12-04-2012, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
59,630 posts, read 57,151,184 times
Reputation: 71085
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
Can someone explain exactly which personal freedoms have been denied in this "war "?

Are you not allowed to go to church?
Are you not allowed to have a tree?
Are nativity scenes illegal on private property?
Are you jailed for saying merry Christmas?

Stop whining, you can do as you please. And so can I.
HEY! We can't put up plastic Holy Family et al figures on the municipal building lawn anymore, dammit. If that isn't war...well, harumph.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Texas
121 posts, read 90,722 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
You're a pathetic liar and a paranoid zealot, Nunnor.

Government endorsement of a particular religion is against the law. It's that simple.
So much rancor, so little cause. I believe the proscription is against establishing a state religion. Tolerating or otherwise allowing religions free expression on public grounds hardly seems to constitute the establishment of a religion, especially since the free exercise thereof is specifically granted. I watch the bitterness of this debate with wonder and incredulity from the sidelines as a Spiritualist. Why so hostile and angry about public displays of religious themes?
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