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Old 12-04-2012, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,311 posts, read 11,237,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist View Post
How is it that you don't believe in any of them and yet do not deny the existence of them?


Simply put . . . and I won't ask you again, because I think atheism is stupid . . . what is a god or gods. And think on this, it isn't dependent upon your acceptance or lack thereof.
I don't know that I've ever heard of an atheist who claims that no possible, conceivable god could exist.

One way to put it is this: The guy that the ancient Greeks thought drove the chariot of the sun across the heavens every day? A god. No reason to believe he ever existed.

The guy that the ancient Hebrews claimed spoke to Moses out of a burning bush and told Noah to build a giant ship, not to mention the giant ship itself and the two of every species that went on that ship? The guy who told him to do that? A god. No reason to believe he ever existed.

The guy whose hammer causes thunder and lightning? A god. No reason to believe he ever existed.

You see, this is how it works. We don't have to define for all places and all times what might constitute a god and prove it doesn't exist. To be an atheist all we have to say is that there is no evidence or reasoning that would satisfy a rational person to believe that any god that has yet been postulated has ever existed.

If you have some other contender, and you want to get us to discuss whether your contender exists, tell us what your contender is, what its properties are, and what your evidence is for the existence of this contender. Then we can maybe talk about it.

Unfortunately, though, I can only predict that your mind is so hopelessly muddled that you won't be able to make a substantive response.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Central Indiana
167 posts, read 145,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
I don't know that I've ever heard of an atheist who claims that no possible, conceivable god could exist.

One way to put it is this: The guy that the ancient Greeks thought drove the chariot of the sun across the heavens every day? A god. No reason to believe he ever existed.

The guy that the ancient Hebrews claimed spoke to Moses out of a burning bush and told Noah to build a giant ship, not to mention the giant ship itself and the two of every species that went on that ship? The guy who told him to do that? A god. No reason to believe he ever existed.

The guy whose hammer causes thunder and lightning? A god. No reason to believe he ever existed.

You see, this is how it works. We don't have to define for all places and all times what might constitute a god and prove it doesn't exist. To be an atheist all we have to say is that there is no evidence or reasoning that would satisfy a rational person to believe that any god that has yet been postulated has ever existed.

If you have some other contender, and you want to get us to discuss whether your contender exists, tell us what your contender is, what its properties are, and what your evidence is for the existence of this contender. Then we can maybe talk about it.

Unfortunately, though, I can only predict that your mind is so hopelessly muddled that you won't be able to make a substantive response.
Tammuz. Sumerian King deified upon his death. Jesus. There are two. Real people who existed and were gods. Moses. The Judges of Israel. Gods. Real people. Existed.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,145 posts, read 5,111,529 times
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An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in any god in the same way a christian doesn't believe in Zeus or Thor. Denial presupposes that x claim is true, but the person is refusing to believe it, despite the fact that the evidence shows otherwise. This is the difference between not denying and not believing. Atheists aren't refusing to accept the truth of god, they don't believe in god because there is no evidence that verifies the existence of a deity.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Central Indiana
167 posts, read 145,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in any god in the same way a christian doesn't believe in Zeus or Thor. Denial presupposes that x claim is true, but the person is refusing to believe it, despite the fact that the evidence shows otherwise. This is the difference between not denying and not believing. Atheists aren't refusing to accept the truth of god, they don't believe in god because there is no evidence that verifies the existence of a deity.
Having said that, what would be evidence that verifies the existence of a deity, what is a deity, and how would this evidence change atheism?
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,113 posts, read 18,599,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist View Post
What beauty are they missing out on? Share the beauty.
I'm thinking that filihok was referencing the beauty of free thinking, the exploration of possibilities, one's creativity unfettered by the constraints of superstition, unassailable dogma and absolutists mentalities.

I don't know that it is something that can be shared, only experienced by the individual so indulging.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Central Indiana
167 posts, read 145,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I'm thinking that filihok was referencing the beauty of free thinking, the exploration of possibilities, one's creativity unfettered by the constraints of superstition, unassailable dogma and absolutists mentalities.

I don't know that it is something that can be shared, only experienced by the individual so indulging.
None of that has been hampered by my beliefs or of people with similar beliefs as my own. It's a myth or propaganda.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:28 PM
 
794 posts, read 1,196,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist View Post
Tammuz. Sumerian King deified upon his death. Jesus. There are two. Real people who existed and were gods. Moses. The Judges of Israel. Gods. Real people. Existed.
And your evidence?

But just hold on while I make popcorn.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist View Post
The difficulty here is that science doesn't test the supernatural; this is complicated by the fact that what exactly god is has been transmogrified by the superstitious and ignorant religious traditions of the past.
Religion's fundamental premise is that it's intolerable for there to be anything you don't know about with absolute certainty and which isn't under some form of sentient control -- by you or by superior beings, real or imagined. It then invents beings and realms that aren't subject to your five senses or any other form of empirical perception, assessment, investigation or verification in order to explain the (currently) inexplicable or to assure you that someone has your back with respect to things you're not in control of. This strikes me as superstitious and ignorant no matter how you try to sanitize it with some "new" tradition of the present. There is no "new" available, it's always the same old paradigm. Humans experience the human condition; angst ensues; religion provides faux comfort; humans avoid accepting things as they are, through belief in superficially comforting fairy tales.

Of course science doesn't test what isn't testable. That which isn't testable is either beyond the reach of science for now or is perhaps beyond our reach, period (for example we inherently cannot observe outside the system we are within, that is, outside of space or time -- and if we could, it's doubtful we could make sense of what we observed anyway). The good news is, that's okay. We don't have to know it all, or control it all.

To the extent we've made actual, demonstrable progress in knowledge and control of our environment, I'll take what science provides any day over what religion provides. My guess is you have a car, central heating and plumbing, and may well owe your life to antibiotics, among many other things. This is real knowledge and control, not total, but better than what it was 500 years or even 50 years ago and that comes to you courtesy of science and largely in spite of religion.

Ultimately though no matter how convenient and predictable we can make life, stuff will still happen; there will still be suffering and sorrow and loss and we will still deal with our mortality. The answer to that is to face it honestly and without embellishment or fabrication. This life is all there is for each of us, therefore it's precious. We have only each other, therefore, our fellow man is important and what I do impacts others for good or ill. Life is short and nothing is permanent, so make the most of the present moment, don't dwell on the past or fret about the future. Love well and laugh often -- at the absurdity of life if nothing else. These are the messages we need to be giving ourselves so that we can deal with life as it is and not as we childishly wish it to be.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,113 posts, read 18,599,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist View Post
None of that has been hampered by my beliefs or of people with similar beliefs as my own. It's a myth or propaganda.

If any of your beliefs may be described as faith based, or advertised by you as "sacred", then those are the restraints I was referencing.

They are clearly not myth or propaganda, rather they are self imposed stopping points in the consideration of the cosmic riddles...."I'm going to believe this in the face of anything said or established against it."

Escaping from that mentality, that is the beauty filihok meant.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,311 posts, read 11,237,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist View Post
Tammuz. Sumerian King deified upon his death. Jesus. There are two. Real people who existed and were gods. Moses. The Judges of Israel. Gods. Real people. Existed.


You say nothing about what it means to take some person from the past, real or imagined, and assert that he was a god. Your Judeo-Christian theology is confused beyond recovery. At a minimum, you are using the term "god" in a way that means nothing to anyone in the rest of the world, except when you mention Eric Clapton, which is understandable but highly debatable.

Stop trying to convert atheists.
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