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Old 04-07-2013, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Florida
418 posts, read 949,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjarado View Post
It always gets under my skin when I hear - or read- someone proclaim
" Everything happens for a reason, through God".

Events have causes, for sure, but everything does NOT happen for some purposeful, deity-directed reason.

What expression annoys you when you hear it and why? Do you ever respond to the contrary?

Why would ANY expression annoy you, you are so into yourself. Live and let live.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,194 posts, read 18,619,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
When God closes a door he opens a window.
Is that supposed to happen or is it just a design flaw in the house?
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,087 posts, read 12,033,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Is that supposed to happen or is it just a design flaw in the house?
Design flaw. The window looks out on a 20 storey drop and the door no longer works.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:20 PM
 
15 posts, read 15,270 times
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Not really a quote but I hate it when Christians answer questions like this:

"why is there evil in the world and why does God allow Satan to exist etc?" when they say things like "We would just be mindless robots, we wouldn't learn, we wouldn't be able to appretiate the good, evil is needed to keep the balance..." stupid answers like that annoy me especially the mindless robot one. If God had the power to create the universe as it is now then he sure as Hell could've created a perfect world that can function perfectly if he had chosen to but he didn't.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,102,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swjw64 View Post
Not really a quote but I hate it when Christians answer questions like this:

"why is there evil in the world and why does God allow Satan to exist etc?" when they say things like "We would just be mindless robots, we wouldn't learn, we wouldn't be able to appretiate the good, evil is needed to keep the balance..." stupid answers like that annoy me especially the mindless robot one. If God had the power to create the universe as it is now then he sure as Hell could've created a perfect world that can function perfectly if he had chosen to but he didn't.
Yes, I have seen Christians in the throes of trying to explain their way out of the Problem of Suffering pick up the "robots" theme again and again. I don't know why it resonates so with them. They are so invested in it that they can't see how life actually can and would be fulfilling without suffering. There is so much to enjoy and do that is positive, especially when you are not encumbered by heartache. Yes there is hedonic tone, which mitigates emotional highs and make them unsustainable, but it doesn't depend on misery to do its thing.

What it boils down to is a Christian meme that might be labeled, "suffering is ennobling". I am with Dilbert on this one: "that which does not kill me makes me angry and weak". You can overcome suffering and turn lemons into lemonade in various ways but there are far more efficient and enjoyable paths to maturity and fulfillment. I've tried it both ways and there is no comparison. Religion tends to capitulate to suffering and accept it as both a given and a necessity -- probably because it so fails to deliver on its promises of blessing for the faithful. We unbelievers see suffering as something to actually be ameliorated. We dare to imagine even eliminating it.

Now I know that there are many e.g. Christian charities that reach out to the less fortunate but what I am talking about is not that theists deny suffering but that they consider it necessary and inevitable and even beneficial. I consider it unacceptable, unnecessary, ugly, and if it weren't so early, I'd probably manage to find a few more U-words. Maybe it's because I don't have an afterlife to defer justice, fairness, and enjoyment to.
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Florida
2,291 posts, read 4,953,578 times
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Asked my friend a question, she replied "What would jesus do?" I replied "How the heck do I know, why don't you text him and ask him, then you can tell me."
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,194 posts, read 18,619,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post

Now I know that there are many e.g. Christian charities that reach out to the less fortunate but what I am talking about is not that theists deny suffering but that they consider it necessary and inevitable and even beneficial. .
The doctrine has evolved due to pragmatic concerns.

The earliest Christians subscribed to the idea that the day of judgment was arriving imminently, that Earthly life was primarily a testing ground the singular purpose of which was to sort those worthy of entering the Kingdom of Heaven from those who would disqualify themselves via indulgence in the pleasures of life. At this point Christianity was a religion going up....a theology for which the main appeal was to the slaves and lower classes, people whose Earthly lives were going to pretty much be all suffering anyway.

After Constantine, Christianity's growth changed from a voluntary spread from the lower to the upper classes, to a mandatory spread imposed by the upper classes upon the lower. The doctrine of happily enduring suffering took on a pragmatic application for the upper classes, it became the justification for a situation where a few lived in wealth and comfort and everyone else toiled to keep them in their lofty places. God had chosen the lower classes to suffer and the more that they suffered on Earth, the greater the probability of their receiving their eternal reward. The doctrine was the primary medieval tool for propping up the imbalanced social structure.

Now in these less class conscious times, where even the peasants can live in relative comfort thanks to technology, the doctrine survives but is no longer one of seeking suffering for the sake of the blessings involved, but rather is one which allows Christians to think that they are getting salvation points for enduring those things which they cannot prevent. Someone loses a child to a miscarriage, someone's new boat is destroyed in a marina fire, someone's market investment goes sour...these things get counted as suffering for heaven's sake when in fact the actual reason is...."I couldn't help it."

So, from actively seeking additional burdens in life where suffering was viewed as a good thing, we have arrived at "As long as we are going to have to suffer sometimes in life, may as well claim that we are getting heaven points for it."
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,102,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
The doctrine has evolved due to pragmatic concerns.
Excellent post. Tying it back to the "robots" theme, though, it is not strictly a "pie in the sky by and by" concept -- there's also this attempt to make it relevant in this life by trying free will in somehow. What they fail to understand is the inconsistency of talking about how horrible it'd be to become "mindless robots" with "no free will" here on earth, but then talking about Eden, pre-fall, as a paradise despite it being populated by "mindless robots" who did not know the difference between good and evil. Oddly, they managed to choose evil, however ... they had a capacity for choice even in innocence, so clearly not robots.

And then they look forward to being mindless robots in heaven, where they will bow down and worship god day and night, where Satan will be (after an initial head-fake lasting 1000 years, depending on your particular eschatology) tossed into hell and the key thrown away so no one will be tempted / motivated to "rebel" against god ... and where everyone will be happy all the time, where every tear will be wiped away, despite there being no more free choice.. Christians hold forth the possibility of happiness and fulfillment in an existence devoid of suffering and sin as something to look forward to, yet declare it logically impossible if you're talking about the Real World(tm).

A Christian might respond that there will be plenty of choice in heaven, just not unlimited -- which is exactly my point. God could have eliminated suffering from existence in advance and there would still be plenty of fulfilling options for people, here and now, with the additional benefit of not being distracted by suffering.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,363,469 times
Reputation: 2613
I'll pray for you.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
1,207 posts, read 1,201,326 times
Reputation: 1377
An expression of faith that annoyed me when I lived in Turkey was hearing the call to prayer in the very early morning hours. No one was spared.
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