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Old 12-18-2012, 06:29 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,512,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
No. They just aren't.
I don't particularly believe in ghosts, yet I don't particularly not believe in them. I don't have a strong opinion either way, so you could say I'm agnostic on the subject of ghosts.

Atheists say they see no reason to believe in God but they believe God is NOT LIKELY, which is the big difference, hence they believe that God probably does not exist.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,278 posts, read 18,638,985 times
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What is so rational is that the alternative is believing that our lives are unfolding according to some plan devised by a supreme being. In that I, a creature of supposed wretchedly inferior intellect when compared to The Almighty, am capable of crafting a vastly superior plan for myself, one which does not feature the humiliations of youth, the disillusionment's of middle age, the aches and pains of the geriatric years, and the ultimate futility of perishing, I cannot credit this god with assumptions of superiority.

Give me unlimited power and I would not have insisted on creating mosquitoes, earthquakes, fragile digestive systems (or any digestive system for that matter) I would not have made some people mean and others apparently born to be victimized. I'm very confident that I would have seen no necessity for polio, cyclones or the need for underarm deodorants.

So, it is either accidents, which can be good or bad, or it is a celestial plan, which is inexplicably bad if we assume limitless powers for the planners.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:16 PM
 
12,438 posts, read 9,955,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I don't particularly believe in ghosts, yet I don't particularly not believe in them. I don't have a strong opinion either way, so you could say I'm agnostic on the subject of ghosts.

Atheists say they see no reason to believe in God but they believe God is NOT LIKELY, which is the big difference, hence they believe that God probably does not exist.
There really is not a hell of a lot of point to talking to you on this subject. You sure don't seem to read any of the replies.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:33 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,512,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
What is so rational is that the alternative is believing that our lives are unfolding according to some plan devised by a supreme being. In that I, a creature of supposed wretchedly inferior intellect when compared to The Almighty, am capable of crafting a vastly superior plan for myself, one which does not feature the humiliations of youth, the disillusionment's of middle age, the aches and pains of the geriatric years, and the ultimate futility of perishing, I cannot credit this god with assumptions of superiority.

Give me unlimited power and I would not have insisted on creating mosquitoes, earthquakes, fragile digestive systems (or any digestive system for that matter) I would not have made some people mean and others apparently born to be victimized. I'm very confident that I would have seen no necessity for polio, cyclones or the need for underarm deodorants.

So, it is either accidents, which can be good or bad, or it is a celestial plan, which is inexplicably bad if we assume limitless powers for the planners.
I sometimes hate it when I hear this myself, but sometimes we just can't possibly understand God or why things are the way they are.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:34 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,512,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
There really is not a hell of a lot of point to talking to you on this subject. You sure don't seem to read any of the replies.
Likewise.

If by 'read' you mean, 'read and agree' then no, I don't. But i consider them with as much as an open mind as I can.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I sometimes hate it when I hear this myself, but sometimes we just can't possibly understand God or why things are the way they are.
"sometimes?"

How do you distinguish those times from any other times?
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:44 PM
 
Location: England
783 posts, read 835,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
You refuse to answer because you won't accept any possible evidence for a Creator, even when it is offered. The complexity of a cell, for instance. The fact it's like a machine. Do you not accept this as possible evidence for intelligent design? Or do you demand to see God doing it in front of your eyes? The burden isn't completely with the theist, IMO, I think it's sort of an arrogant position to assume so.
A lot of these complexities evolved from far more simplistic iterations. For example, eyes evolved from a few photo-sensitive cells. Mitochondria of cells were actually originally parasitic bacteria that genetically merged with us.

Complexity doesn't imply intelligent design, though it is at least more a compelling argument than "the bible says so".
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
2,532 posts, read 2,504,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I don't particularly believe in ghosts, yet I don't particularly not believe in them. I don't have a strong opinion either way, so you could say I'm agnostic on the subject of ghosts.

Atheists say they see no reason to believe in God but they believe God is NOT LIKELY, which is the big difference, hence they believe that God probably does not exist.
I think most agnostics would suggest that the existence of gods (perhaps of ghosts as well), or lack thereof, is a question which lies beyond the sensory perception of human beings; and that, subsequently, it is foolish to entertain the very question itself.

The universe is. That's it!

Going beyond that statement requires either speculation, or a level of knowledge no human being in history has been able to prove themselves to possess. The Design Argument, which is essentially what your're using, requires an assumption that the various components of the universe are perfectly ordered.

So for example, one could argue that the human body, with all of its complexity, is a finely-crafted machine. Therefore, there must be a designer to design that machine. But that fails to take into consideration the gross inefficiencies of the human body: it is susceptible to a host of organic invasions, it can't tolerate extremes of temperature or air pressure, it has a need for a constant and specific mixture of gases within the atmosphere, its electrical system sometimes malfunctions, its components easily break, it ultimately wears out after a few decades.

It makes a lot more sense to operate under the premise that our bodies simply are what they are, and have adapted to--and continue to adapt to--our environment as best as the laws of physics and biology allow.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Rivendell
1,387 posts, read 2,169,556 times
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Lol they are one and the same. If you think there might be a god you're an agnostic. You might 'sound' different phrased like that, but it's the same thing. You want to make theists sound mistaken by a lot of clever semantics and worldplay.
You keep making up your own definitions for words.
An agnostic is not someone who is unsure of their beliefs. It is someone who thinks the existence of god is unknowable. Agnostic = without knowledge.
An atheist is without belief in god. Atheist = without belief.
I would not say there is no god. I would say it is not knowable if there is a god, and without knowing if there is one or not, I can't believe in one. That makes me an agnostic atheist.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I sometimes hate it when I hear this myself, but sometimes we just can't possibly understand God or why things are the way they are.
I think this makes you an agnostic theist. You can't understand your god, or the way things are, but you believe in him anyway.

I know you pop up on this forum fairly often. Do you ever learn anything here, or do you always stick with your misinterpretations?
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Yuma, Az
344 posts, read 340,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
And don't start with the 'we don't believe it's an accident'. If you believe in any kind of guiding/intelligent force, you're a theist in some sense, Deist, Pantheist, whatever. You don't just have to believe in a personal interventionist God. If you don't, then you believe it just happened by itself, for no reason, pretty much the definition of an 'accident.'

Although the argument has been used ad nauseum, and has been countered with arguments such as well, humans can't comprehend what is beyond their experience, I still question the rationality of believing that Life or indeed Existence or the Universe 'just happened', and then we arose out of an accident.

We don't observe things spontaneously coming into existence in nature, usually things that looked like they were designed were well, were. Why should nature somehow be the exception? Is even the watchmaker's analogy too much of a stretch?

I have a trouble with aspects of the image of God religion has portrayed myself, but I will say that, maybe it's subjective, but personally I think it's more rational to believe in some sort of intelligent design, whatever the cause. Atheists might have legit reasons for believing as they do, but I don't like how atheists portray intelligent design as irrational, as if believing if all happened by chance is somehow the more rational position to take, that it all came from nothing.
Personally, I think there is some chance that some intelligent being created the universe. I don't think that's what happened, but I think there is a chance. I do not discount it as irrational. Most theists when arguing for the existence of a god seem to work extra hard to be convincing that the universe was created by an intelligent being of some kind.

When it comes to my view of theism, my ship leaves the dock when it comes to arguing that there is an invisible god who hears our prayers, and has a heaven and hell where we are to be sent after this god judges us according to our life's deed, good deeds and bad.

I'm no scientist, but I say that there is some chance that an intelligent being may have created the universe, I consider my opinion on that to be scientific, however amateur it may be. When I apply that same [amateur] scientific logic to the possibilities of a "prayer listening" god, then I give it a no. Essentially, I view one scenario (a being created the universe) has somewhat scientific, the other scenario (the invisible, prayer-listening god) has a kind of fairy tale or myth.

The thing is; almost without exception the theist is arguing that a god created the universe so as to clear a path for the next step; asserting that there is a "prayer listening" god.
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