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Old 01-04-2013, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,978 posts, read 14,268,565 times
Reputation: 16154

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Actually it is worse. Christians claim that salvation is a gift from their god. No one deserves it and no one is good enough to earn it. So There's really nothing you can do - either God decides on a whim you're saved, or maybe you're unlucky and he uses you as an example for all of his other chosen ones. Nothing you can do.

Sounds like life before Jesus was a lot better.
It was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
Let's see...

Before Jesus:
You only had to be a good person to get into heaven.
Actually no, as you will see.

Leviticus 16:29 “This is to be a perpetual statute for you. In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you must humble yourselves and do no work of any kind, both the native citizen and the foreigner who resides in your midst, 16:30 for on this day atonement is to be made for you to cleanse you from all your sins; you must be clean before Jesus.

There you go.

I've mentioned before that if you study the "bible" -- and I mean real study not christian style brain-washing and indoctrination --- you will see that the theology shifts over time.

You can see where there was no heaven or hell --- Yahweh/Jesus has to punish you or reward you right now in the here and now, because once you die, you are beyond the control of Yahweh/Jesus and there's nothing he can do -- he can't punish you, nor can he reward you once you're dead. Then you see shifts from individual punishment/reward to mass punishment/reward (once the covenants appear) then back to individual punishment/reward back to mass punishment/reward.

And for all the talk of keeping the covenants and the commands, where does it all end up? Read the Latter Prophets --- to gain favor with Yahweh/Jesus all you have to do is engage in social justice --- take care of widows, the infirm, the orphans, the elderly, the poor and so on. So what happened to the covenants?

From a reading of Leviticus 16, what three conclusions can you draw?

1] prior to the Exodus there was no need to be cleansed or saved.

2] after the Exodus it was important to be cleansed/saved and the high priest did that

3] at some point the theology shifted and a mere mortal -- like the high priest -- was for whatever reason no longer able to cleanse or save people, even if he was a messiah --- and all Hebrew kings, judges, priests, prophets and so forth from the time of Moses and Aaron were messiahs.....anointed ones.

Why the shift in theology? I'd speculate it was Greek-influenced, probably Mithrianism.

On what basis? Greece was controlled by Rome, and most of the Mithrian cults had gravitated tot he islands in the Aegean Sea. Early Jewish christians left Idumea, Samaria and Judea for the Greek isles, and that was especially true during the Jewish Civil Wars. I'd guess a lot of the non-Jewish Greek converts were former Mithrians, and once they're in the upper echelons of the hierarchy they can co-opt it.

That is not unlike the Mosaic and Aaronid priesthoods.

The Aaronid priests gain power in Jerusalem at the time of Josiah and the next thing you know, the Mosaic priests cease to exist -- most were slaughtered.....literally...in a massacre. From that point forward, the Aaronid priesthood controls the religious doctrines.

But that is all evidence that there is no god. At least not a Judeo-christian god. It is evidence of how a small minority of people can gain power and then institutionalize their belief system, then use those institutions to force their beliefs on others and maintain power and control over them.

Theologically....

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by KittenSparkles View Post
Does the Bible claim "He" is omnipotent? I am asking genuinely. How do Christians reconcile that omnipotence with the free will that humans apparently have been granted by God?

It seems to me that if we have free will, it would negate a God's ability to be omnipotent.
He's the "creator" so how could he not be omnipotent?

You write a screenplay, teleplay, or a novel and you don't know what happens or how the story ends?

That's one way of looking at it.

To answer your question directly, nowhere in the text does it state god is omnipotent, however it is implied since god provides prophecy -- claiming to know future events.

Omnisciently....

Mircea
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
5,192 posts, read 4,395,731 times
Reputation: 3821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
...you will see that the theology shifts over time.
Yes. The God of the OT seems almost irreconcilable with the NT God.

Quote:
But that is all evidence that there is no god. At least not a Judeo-christian god. It is evidence of how a small minority of people can gain power and then institutionalize their belief system, then use those institutions to force their beliefs on others and maintain power and control over them.
Nietzsche said "All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power, not truth."

Quote:
You write a screenplay, teleplay, or a novel and you don't know what happens or how the story ends?

That's one way of looking at it.
That's a really great, apt analogy.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: in my mind
4,758 posts, read 6,549,459 times
Reputation: 9501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

He's the "creator" so how could he not be omnipotent?

You write a screenplay, teleplay, or a novel and you don't know what happens or how the story ends?
Ok, so God writes a screenplay that includes children getting raped, thousands of people being put in gas chambers because they are Jewish, tens of thousands getting slaughtered with machetes in Africa because they belong to a certain tribe? I could go on.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Boone, NC
1,047 posts, read 1,976,104 times
Reputation: 1046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
16:30 for on this day atonement is to be made for you to cleanse you from all your sins; you must be clean before Jesus.
What the hell kind of translation are you using?
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
2,532 posts, read 2,501,894 times
Reputation: 4250
No--Been there, done that, grew up.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
5,192 posts, read 4,395,731 times
Reputation: 3821
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittenSparkles View Post
Ok, so God writes a screenplay that includes children getting raped, thousands of people being put in gas chambers because they are Jewish, tens of thousands getting slaughtered with machetes in Africa because they belong to a certain tribe? I could go on.
That's the thrust of this idea.

If the Judeo-Christian God, Yahweh, is omniscient, as The Bible indicates, then he knows--before we are even born--what our fates will be. He knows who will be saved and who will be damned.

He would have already known, for example, that in (the myth of) The Garden of Eden, humans would fall to temptation and be covered in sin forever, consigning billions of souls to eternal torment.

How could an omniscient god possibly be surprised at any actions of any of his creations?

He couldn't--or he wouldn't be omnisicient.

You must abdicate all reason and logic to believe in such a being.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
9,745 posts, read 14,204,985 times
Reputation: 14796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Actually no, as you will see...
Actually I only said that because the OP was claiming that before Jesus one needed only to be a good person to enter heaven. I just found it strange that he would claim that yet still believe eternity after Jesus was an improvement.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:38 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,542 posts, read 2,453,868 times
Reputation: 24054
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
I can't imagine ever believing in anything like a god.

In my entire 67 years, I have never experienced anything remotely supernatural.

I admit some things like magnetism are absolutely amazing, but they are not supernatural. It only shows the reality of the Universe is more complex than just a 3-dimensional space with various atoms floating around.
Although I definitely agree with the basic premise, actually I'm glad a re-read what you said cause I can't really disagree period.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Tujunga
421 posts, read 393,673 times
Reputation: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
No. Even if there were evidence that supported it, I would never follow it.
Seems like a rather odd thing to say
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
8,820 posts, read 6,371,468 times
Reputation: 4886
That's not odd, even if there was a jesus and god..I would never follow any cult praising anyone or thing..any creature that behaves the way this deity is portrayed is not something I'd want to follow or be a part of. This loving deity sacrifices his own son?? What type crazy stuff is that? You love your kid but you'll sacrifice him? Sounds like something the Incas and Mayas did and they were considered heathens by those lovely christians who took so many rituals from them and made them theirs...eating the body of christ, drinking the blood of christ?
Christians are the most unbelievable, hypochritical beings ever.. The Belgian Christians went to Africa to chop off hands and maim and rape the local people if they didn't follow them into their cultish life and this was done in the name of Christianity..they stole from them everyday, in the name of this god...and I'm just talking of the Belgians here, not of the Portugese, British, Italians, etc....all christian behavior!!
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