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Old 01-08-2013, 07:55 PM
Location: Columbia MO
1,722 posts, read 1,866,573 times
Reputation: 2053


Originally Posted by JuliganO View Post
How could you possibly compare funny and silly pegan figures with Jesus ?! At least there are enough historical and scientific evidence of his existence, and he was a human who walked on earth.
The only non-Christian mention of Jesus I'm aware of (and I've studied it at length) is in Josephus, and that may have been added later by an enthusiastic Christian. Any so-called "evidence" from a gospel is utterly unbelievable, because it was, by definition, written by proselytizers of one sect or another of early Christianity, creating "evidence" for the superiority of their side.

That battle didn't really end until the first council of Nicaea, where they debated whether or not Jesus was the son of God and decided when Easter would be celebrated, specifically to remove the feast of Easter from the Jewish calendar...because by tradition, Jesus was crucified on Passover. And the Council wouldn't have happened if Constantine hadn't made the strategic decision that Christianity would be the ideal state religion for his empire. Not for nothing was the Roman empire known, after Constantine, as the Holy Roman Empire. If you've ever recited the Apostles' Creed, you've recited the major, negotiated tenets of the Council of Nicaea.

There's NO scientific evidence for Jesus' existence. Shroud of Turin? A ham-handed forgery.

No, the Jesus myth has been cobbled together from the cult of Sol Invictus with more than a little Mithraism thrown in, some cult of Aphrodite to appeal to would-be proselytees who wanted a goddess (i.e., the Virgin Mary), with a "bloodline" that "proves" he's of Jewish royal blood.

I'd have no problem being a Christian if it weren't for all you Christians who insist on believing that your myths are literally true. Almost every world religion except Christianity and Islam has gotten past the need to believe in the literal truth of their holy book. They recognize that myths have a deeper truth to them than what literally happened. And note that Christianity and Islam are the most virulently proselytizing religions currently extant, which I think is no coincidence...because at some deep level, Christians either have to accept that what they believe is true only in a metaphorical sense (which ought to be enough), or they must scream and shout all the more loudly at those of us who don't believe in those literal truths. You want more evidence? Yet another Christian felt "called" to start this thread, disobeying the rule of this sub-forum...no proselytizing. And why not? He obeys a higher law, and he must proselytize, says his holy book. No doubt in the original English.

Read some Joseph Campbell...even The Golden Bough, even though it's outdated. Stop forcing your logical mind to believe in fantasies and believe in a deeper truth that doesn't need a child's fairy tale to sustain it.

Oh BTW-- the fact that 2 billion or so believe in Christianity is only "evidence" of Christianity's "truth" to those who already believe it. In Jesus' time, that was called the argumentum ad populum.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:36 PM
16,098 posts, read 17,899,425 times
Reputation: 15891
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
If I met a bona-fide god, I would not start to worship him (or her) immediately. After all, she might be just a minor god, or she might be an evil god.

Remember, Dorothy did not worship the first witch she met.

I would be cordial to the god, and then I wound go about my normal activities.

Star Trek - Broken Hearted God - YouTube
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:59 AM
9,984 posts, read 6,764,101 times
Reputation: 5613
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
When you get older, you will learn to not get annoyed when other people refuse to believe what you know is true.
haha, i believe the word is "thickheaded".
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:08 PM
Location: Chicago
3,569 posts, read 6,021,271 times
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:16 PM
522 posts, read 489,887 times
Reputation: 315
Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
the Belgian missionaries did more damage in Zaire than we'll ever know because the victims are dead or silent for other reasons.
You could say that about anything. My point was the impetus of most of the abuse was profit and imperialism, not religion. That's just the history so far as I know.

Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
why would a question like the OP posted be offensive? or rude? it's a question like any other.
If it doesn't bother you okay. I could see why it would be annoying though. It could seem to imply a hope you'll change or impatience if you won't.

Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
I just see that Christian word as a shield to hide behind. the biggest wrongdoers are hiding behind the Christian label.
Not really. Most oppressive regimes of the last century are Nationalist, Marxist, or Islamists. Few majority Christian nations are particularly oppressive these days. Most murderers or rapists do what they do for their own reasons not religion. Be Christian, don't be Christian whatever. Up to you. But it's not like Christianity is only a justification for harm and no good. Even if you dislike my denomination, Catholic, I'm skeptical you'll find much evil done in the name of the Moravian Church or the Mennonites.

Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
So I would never want to be associated with that gang.
Your choice, but it's basically illogical. That a group contains wrongdoers doesn't tell us whether a group is good or bad, right or wrong. Many scientists happily sided with the Nazi regime and its inhumane treatment of test subjects or workers. This doesn't tell us that the scientific community in Europe is good or bad, true or false, worth associating with or not.

Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
Pity that so many still need that shield or crutch to live their life. To live their life the way they see fit, not the way they are instructed. I'm smarter than that, I've never needed some bible to tell me what's right or wrong and yet, for example, priests who should know that bible inside and out, are the biggest wrongdoers out there!
They also contain some of the most noble humanitarians out there. I believe that I can learn from others and books. (Not just the Bible directly, I'm Catholic) If you think as an individual you can figure it all out on your own without guidance than good luck with that.

Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
That may sound smug but so be it. Why do you need to belong to this group so bad and shout it from the rooftops?
I'm not really the "shout from the rooftops" sort, but it's part of who I am. I'm an individual sure, very individualist in some ways, but I do see a value in being part of a community. Of having connections to people centuries ago and thousands of miles away. If you do or don't that's your issue.

Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
If a christian gets asked "would you ever become an atheist?" then you could tell us about it...there's nothing rude about asking
I just had concerns it sounded provocative and the things I mentioned above.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:53 PM
Location: Dallas,Texas
1,378 posts, read 1,467,811 times
Reputation: 1480
The chance of me becoming Christian is as possible as the tooth fairy existing.
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:36 AM
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
8,820 posts, read 6,365,377 times
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I do consider all forms of christianity a cult, it's just that society accepts this one. Unlike scientology and some others. Anytime something bad happens "oh that's done by individuals, not all of us are bad" "we don't take responsibility for their actions". "Those priests who rape children are bad, that's the devil working through them". We are one group, we all love eachother like jesus taught us" except when a few stray, then it's "sink or swim" "may the good lord help them".
A lot of people blindly follow christianity and remain christians because they're afraid to challenge it. That, to me, has all the makings of a cult. I was told asking questions is the devil trying to shake your faith...Really? If your religion is so solid, then any and all questions should be welcomed at all times. All questions should be welcomed, not avoided or thrown aside as if they don't matter. . I never sad all christians are bad people. Misled, afraid, yes. but not all are bad. It's christianity itself that is bad.
Sure mosts members do good deeds all the time but why? Is it because they just want to help/ do the right thing or because of selfish reasons? If it's done to get into heaven or to feel good about themselves then it's selfish...Why can't you do good just because?...Why do you need a reward or a pat on the shoulder everytime?
Why do you need fear to belong to and stay with this group? If you think of it, in most cases it is fear that stops you from leaving. Not because you are so content there. It's like any bad habit, it's what you know and anything else and different is too scary to even contemplate. You wonder but you're scared to wander (or wonder) too far on your own. Any type wondering is discouraged, be it ever so subtle. You are taught that without god's helping hand, you would be lost and alone and no one would care like he does. That old poem "footprints in the sand", comes to mind. That old reassurance is needed by so many.

Last edited by MaggieZ; 01-13-2013 at 12:50 AM..
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:37 AM
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,084,119 times
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Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
You are taught that without god's helping hand, you would be lost and alone and no one would care like he does. That old poem "footprints in the sand", comes to mind. That old reassurance is needed by so many.
The surpassingly strange thing about that poem is that it's not even comforting. If you really look at it, the protagonist is asking an honest question about why god let him down and then he's simply told that it was his fault for looking at it wrong. (For those who don't know, the basic idea is that there are two sets of footprints in the Beach Of Life so to speak, yours and god's ... the question was, why in my darkest hour was there only one set of footprints, and god's answer is, those were the times I carried you. Yeah, right).

More charitably, when it comes to adversity, you can say that all any belief system has to offer is "this too shall pass, just soldier on through it to the other side" because [favorite rationalization(s) here]. All atheism does is remove any "because" rationalizations that involve the supernatural, the afterlife, or anything else that can't be proven. It simply demands that we quit BSing ourselves. I think at base, people are worried that if they do this there won't be enough rationalizations to keep them happy, or at least alive. And maybe for some people that is really the issue, I don't know. On the other hand, I'm no Pollyanna and yet I've managed. People discount their own evolutionary wiring that tends to make you underestimate difficulties and overestimate benefits. Conservative Christians in particular, with their pessimistic view of human nature, tend to not see the good in people and in the world, only its dark underbelly, and assume that's all that's left without god in the picture.

I have always fancied myself somewhat the dark and brooding type and yet, surrealistically, I've found myself more than once in these fora arguing for the good and hopeful in humanity and the world against the despair and angst of some hand-wringing Christian. Maybe at the end of the day what's going on is that the Christian has to compensate for more than I do ... they have to compensate for being misunderstood, persecuted, and despised by The Other, that wicked ogre that is the Unchurched, the Unbeliever who, animated by the minions of Satan, ever seeks to destroy them. They fear the loss of their Protector, even though he does such a lousy job that they are driven to wonder where the heck he is in their darkest hour (or like my eldest brother, what they did wrong to cause him to abandon them).
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:02 AM
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
8,820 posts, read 6,365,377 times
Reputation: 4886
I am glad to have never counted on a supreme being to carry me in my extremely dark hours, I would have committed suicide for sure..
and like you say about the footprints poem, the person asking why he was left alone when he needed someone most, he's told he "looked at it wrong"..that's a terrible way of calling him a fool when he's merely asking a question. some god...yet people live their life by that and many other poems and sayings, they have them on walls everywhere
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:10 PM
Location: Jesusland
235 posts, read 268,253 times
Reputation: 52
My dad was agnostic and converted
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