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View Poll Results: Do you consider yourself an agnostic or atheist?
agnostic 57 36.54%
atheist 99 63.46%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-22-2014, 06:18 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,945,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As I have repeatedly told you . . . it is not whether or not intelligence is needed. It is the very existence of conscious intelligence itself that cannot be explained by YOUR default.
Ignoring that this is a textbook setup for an argument from ignorance, anyone know how the whole dark matter powered universal consciousness field God who sent Jesus to us explains the origins of consciousness? Seems like it is just asserted as a fact that somehow magically dark matter and dark energy streaming from our thoughts (and the thoughts of alien species, if we believe previous hand-waving on the matter) powers / controls / enables the universal god field. But how? Where did this whole setup come from? How did the universe create this system if the system itself is allegedly the source of everything? Did it travel back in time and create itself before it existed?

There are lots of holes here. That's fine, no one knows everything. But no fair pretending that a lack of a 100% complete explanation is a failing if your pet ideas are held to a different standard.

Edit - not to mention that we have tons of evidence that consciousness is just one of the many things that the physical brain does. Too bad there's no similar evidence for a dark energy thought powered universal consciousness field god. Guess that's why people who want to to be real have to go though all of these contortions to reassure themselves that their faith is going to be rewarded.
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Old 04-22-2014, 06:39 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,363,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Too bad there's no similar evidence for a dark energy thought powered universal consciousness field god. Guess that's why people who want to to be real have to go though all of these contortions to reassure themselves that their faith is going to be rewarded.
I remember as a teenager taking walks through my small town on Christmas Eve. I was alone, the town was utterly still and almost eerily quiet.

Then, I could feel that global consciousness. It was like a certain low frequency buzz in the air itself, an incredible feeling of belonging and comeraderie with humanity itself. Yeah, I know, that's anecdotal and means little to anyone who hasn't felt it - but there is a reason why Christmas has always been described as a "magical" time of the year. I think it is because of this global consciousness with at least a billion people all focused on the same thing.

Is my experience evidence? Of course not. I can't prove a damn thing and I certainly have no idea if it was a "dark energy consciousness" wave that swept through the town. But it was something, and I do think it has something to do with a global consciousness that can only be felt when enough people are focusing on roughly the same event.

I also think that, perhaps, the young are more attuned to it as their lives are still generally innocent and, for children, Christmas is especially exciting. Once you grow up, you lose a lot of access to global consciousness and it just fizzles away.

Now, Mystic and I disagree on the idea that this global consciousness is actually God, a god, or any entity of any kind. But I do think there is something to be said for a global consciousness of some kind.
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:38 AM
 
Location: northwest Illinois
2,331 posts, read 2,644,406 times
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Maybe indigestion? ...just kidding.
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:19 AM
 
39,255 posts, read 10,922,331 times
Reputation: 5101
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Ignoring that this is a textbook setup for an argument from ignorance, anyone know how the whole dark matter powered universal consciousness field God who sent Jesus to us explains the origins of consciousness? Seems like it is just asserted as a fact that somehow magically dark matter and dark energy streaming from our thoughts (and the thoughts of alien species, if we believe previous hand-waving on the matter) powers / controls / enables the universal god field. But how? Where did this whole setup come from? How did the universe create this system if the system itself is allegedly the source of everything? Did it travel back in time and create itself before it existed?

There are lots of holes here. That's fine, no one knows everything. But no fair pretending that a lack of a 100% complete explanation is a failing if your pet ideas are held to a different standard.

Edit - not to mention that we have tons of evidence that consciousness is just one of the many things that the physical brain does. Too bad there's no similar evidence for a dark energy thought powered universal consciousness field god. Guess that's why people who want to to be real have to go though all of these contortions to reassure themselves that their faith is going to be rewarded.
Well, I gather than Mystic assumes that in the beginning was the Consciousness and the consciousness was "God" and the Consciousness that was God decided by an act of Will that the universe of Matter should begin to evolve.
I suppose that dark matter as a vehicle for the God -consciousness was always there, just as the consciousness was, but Mystic will no doubt explain that if he feels inclined and the Godderatesses do not delete all our posts as going off -topic.
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:22 AM
 
39,255 posts, read 10,922,331 times
Reputation: 5101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
I remember as a teenager taking walks through my small town on Christmas Eve. I was alone, the town was utterly still and almost eerily quiet.

Then, I could feel that global consciousness. It was like a certain low frequency buzz in the air itself, an incredible feeling of belonging and comeraderie with humanity itself. Yeah, I know, that's anecdotal and means little to anyone who hasn't felt it - but there is a reason why Christmas has always been described as a "magical" time of the year. I think it is because of this global consciousness with at least a billion people all focused on the same thing.

Is my experience evidence? Of course not. I can't prove a damn thing and I certainly have no idea if it was a "dark energy consciousness" wave that swept through the town. But it was something, and I do think it has something to do with a global consciousness that can only be felt when enough people are focusing on roughly the same event.

I also think that, perhaps, the young are more attuned to it as their lives are still generally innocent and, for children, Christmas is especially exciting. Once you grow up, you lose a lot of access to global consciousness and it just fizzles away.

Now, Mystic and I disagree on the idea that this global consciousness is actually God, a god, or any entity of any kind. But I do think there is something to be said for a global consciousness of some kind.
Indeed, but as I say about Mystic's Experience, I do not deny the experience, but reserve belief about the cause and what it may signify.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:09 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,363,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Indeed, but as I say about Mystic's Experience, I do not deny the experience, but reserve belief about the cause and what it may signify.
True, true ... no argument there.
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:35 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,806,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As I have repeatedly told you . . . it is not whether or not intelligence is needed. It is the very existence of conscious intelligence itself that cannot be explained by YOUR default. You would ignore something that exists to establish YOUR default on the basis that it is not needed!God as defined by ANYONE is NOT the issue. The state of our reality IS. Our reality is such a ubiquitous, powerful, entity responsible for all life, consciousness, intelligence and EVERYTHING else . . . besides being seemingly infinite in scope in relation to us . . . that the label God is NOT unwarranted. The negative associations with the myriad defined gods of human beings is no reason to preclude it. It fits the concept of Supreme Source of everything (including conscious intelligence) more than adequately. What else is believed or not about it is irrelevant. As a viable state of reality it qualifies. THAT is why the default MUST be . . . "We don't know."
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
We certainly don't have a complete understanding of consciousness, but we can see what appears to be a continuum of sentience in animals, we have taken baby steps into modelling learning and decision making using the structure of our physical brains as a guide, we have an evolutionary mechanism that gives us a plausible explanations for how our brains got be be built as they are. I am not sure how you can categorically say that consciousness cannot be explained by a materialist default. It is certainly a gap in our knowledge, but that doesn't rule out something other than a god as the answer...
It is not a gap . . . it is a chasm. We have nothing in the material world that can conceivably be considered a proto-consciousness from which consciousness could evolve. There is literally nothing else remotely like it in reality. I realize that I have failed to help you and your cohort to see that everything that operates within reality has to be some form of energy composite. I accept that failure. You point to the brain and its evolution as the material basis of consciousness . . . but it cannot be the locus of the composite we identify and interact with as YOU. It can only be the "factory" that produces YOU as a composite energy formed of resonant neural field activity . . . which we experience after the fact as a "delayed broadcast." As long as this remains misunderstood or rejected or not comprehended . . . my views will make no sense.
Quote:
I would argue the label of God is unwarranted. What do we know about reality? It appears to be big and it exists. That's it... It cannot be the source of "all that is", it is all that is. That is "reality" is just a name we apply to the set that includes everything. We have no evidence that it is conscious or sentient, that it has a will or a mind, that it loves or wants or needs. It just is.
This is disingenuous. Reality is not Godlike because it is big! Everything about it cries out God. But I have ceded that it cannot be the default anymore than your view can because "we don't know." What is so difficult to comprehend about that?
Quote:
Anything other than being vast and being at all is conjecture, a belief about reality. To go any further, we would need to define exactly what a god is. Without some understanding of what the word god means it is impossible to determine if reality is one. If by god, all you mean is something big, with no possible predecessor, then reality would qualify. Of course, almost no one would agree with that definition of god, not even you. Of course you mean a great deal more than that...
What you or I or anyone else BELIEVES ABOUT God/reality is irrelevant. I was clear about all the known attributes of reality that IMO sufficiently delineate a God. You disagree. That is why neither can be the default because . . . . wait for it . . . "We don't know."
Quote:
The answer is, "We don't know" becasue of the epistemology of existence. Given a definition of God, we cannot know that it does not exist without a total knowledge of the system, that is all of reality itself. But if we have no evidence for a god (however we define it) then we have the highest possible amount of evidence pointing to its nonexistence. Just as it is reasonable to withhold belief in aliens or bigfoot without evidence, so it is with God
Nonsense. We have NO evidence of non-existence because all we have as evidence is what does exist. You insist on treating God as something outside of reality or as creator of reality. It is intrinsic and all evidence is evidence of it. Existence is sufficient to establish it as the source of everything that exists. There is no need for anything external. Its very essence existentially is the source. We have enough evidence. We just disagree about the attributes that are sufficient to be considered God. That is why the default must be . . . do I need to say it again?
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:46 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,806,349 times
Reputation: 6057
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As I have repeatedly told you . . . it is not whether or not intelligence is needed. It is the very existence of conscious intelligence itself that cannot be explained by YOUR default. You would ignore something that exists to establish YOUR default on the basis that it is not needed!God as defined by ANYONE is NOT the issue. The state of our reality IS. Our reality is such a ubiquitous, powerful, entity responsible for all life, consciousness, intelligence and EVERYTHING else . . . besides being seemingly infinite in scope in relation to us . . . that the label God is NOT unwarranted. The negative associations with the myriad defined gods of human beings is no reason to preclude it. It fits the concept of Supreme Source of everything (including conscious intelligence) more than adequately. What else is believed or not about it is irrelevant. As a viable state of reality it qualifies. THAT is why the default MUST be . . . "We don't know."
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Conscious intelligence can be seen before our werry eyes, old chum, evolving as does life itself. From the simplest forms which are conscious enough only to go after something edible or that looks like husband material. That can be postulated to have its basics in the biochemical reactions of DNA and molecular interactions, and thus back to minerals and thus to basic matter and the laws of physics. I explained all this to you right at the start of our debate and you still will not even remember what my position is, let alone concede that it has merit.
Because it doesn't . . . as a default. A postulate cannot serve as a default. Both our views are tenable and can serve as our personal beliefs about reality . . . but neither can be the default because . . . do I need to repeat it??? "WE DO NOT KNOW."
Quote:
P.s and now Capo above has immediately seen the same rather obvious flaw in your argument, Mystic old mate. When I say you are sussed,washed up and your argument has crashed and burnt, I am not trying to get your goat, but to explain that your endlessly circular argument is now understood and seen (by most posters who have looked at it, as I recall) to be without credibility.
Repeatedly asserting your wishes and dreams does not make them true, Arq!
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,877 posts, read 3,799,289 times
Reputation: 4619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
I remember as a teenager taking walks through my small town on Christmas Eve. I was alone, the town was utterly still and almost eerily quiet.

Then, I could feel that global consciousness. It was like a certain low frequency buzz in the air itself, an incredible feeling of belonging and comeraderie with humanity itself. Yeah, I know, that's anecdotal and means little to anyone who hasn't felt it - but there is a reason why Christmas has always been described as a "magical" time of the year. I think it is because of this global consciousness with at least a billion people all focused on the same thing.

Is my experience evidence? Of course not. I can't prove a damn thing and I certainly have no idea if it was a "dark energy consciousness" wave that swept through the town. But it was something, and I do think it has something to do with a global consciousness that can only be felt when enough people are focusing on roughly the same event.

I also think that, perhaps, the young are more attuned to it as their lives are still generally innocent and, for children, Christmas is especially exciting. Once you grow up, you lose a lot of access to global consciousness and it just fizzles away.

Now, Mystic and I disagree on the idea that this global consciousness is actually God, a god, or any entity of any kind. But I do think there is something to be said for a global consciousness of some kind.
Nice post.

Yes I wouldn't draw a line through the possibility of there being something like that.
But I wouldn't attribute it to god.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because it doesn't . . . as a default. A postulate cannot serve as a default. Both our views are tenable and can serve as our personal beliefs about reality . . . but neither can be the default because . . . do I need to repeat it??? "WE DO NOT KNOW."
Repeatedly asserting your wishes and dreams does not make them true, Arq!
Sorry guys, I haven't read through the 33 pages of this thread so I'm probably missing something.

Mystic are you saying you don't know if there is a god or not? I thought you'd stated in the past you were sure there was? Are you having doubts?
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:28 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,806,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Mystic are you saying you don't know if there is a god or not? I thought you'd stated in the past you were sure there was? Are you having doubts?
No Cruithne . . . the focus has shifted from what we each consider to be the default premise (our beliefs) . . . to what the actual default state of reality can legitimately be. My certainty is unaffected . . . but I am conceding that my theist view cannot be considered the default state of reality and neither can the atheist view because "We do not know." The only true default state of reality is "We do not know."
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