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Old 01-12-2013, 07:14 AM
 
12,195 posts, read 9,895,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
why should it be reasonable ? i think its totally irrational. Please show me i am wrong.
No. I don't need to. You have already done a pretty good job. And you don't answer any of my questions. You cherry pick.

 
Old 01-12-2013, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
5,192 posts, read 4,391,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
So are you saying there is no reason for the universe?
Why in the world should we suppose there is a "reason for the universe?" Whatever ultimate "reason" there may be it is certainly beyond current human understanding and comprehension.

I am perfectly fine in the feeling that whatever "reason" or "purpose" my existence has is what I find in it and make of it.

There is no reason for any of us to legitimately feel as if we are any more cosmically significant than a carpenter ant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
Who told you i have no evidence ?
For the existence of a god or gods? Please DO provide some. I'm all ears!

Quote:
present good reasons, and may they be more convincing than the answers given by theists. We exist. The universe exists. That demands a answer. God is one of the possible answers.
As far as "good reasons" why not just leave it with the fact that there is not now nor has there ever been any evidence of any kind whatsoever for gods? As I have said before, I can completely understand why a person might look at the diversity of life on Earth and the grandeur and wonders of the universe and conclude for themselves that there must be some kind of god-like force or entity behind it all. I can truly understand this position. But this isn't evidence or proof. It's emotions and opinion; nothing more. (This does not make it wrong; I just see no reason--again, given the total lack of actual evidence--to default to this opinion or belief. At least for me, personally.

As to the fact that we exist and the universe exists "demanding an answer"--that is simply more emotion and opinion. You want there to be "an answer" and you need there to be a "reason" or "purpose" but there is absolutely no reason for any of this to be so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
so your conclusion is not 100% sure, as you said above ?
I did not say this. You need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills. I clearly said "I could be wrong" (and that something we might consider god-like beings or some kind of ultimate godhead may, in fact, exist in some form or fashion.)

What I said was--and I was correct--is that we have no evidence for the existence of a god or gods. Whether or not it or they exist is more than any human knows. We just have no real reason to believe in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD39 View Post
But atheists will claim as fact that there is no God and the Bible is completely myth.
Nonsense. I'll grant there are some atheists who "claim as fact" that there is no god, but the typical atheist stance is simply "I don't believe in gods." That's a different thing. And anyone with any knowledge of history would be ignorant to say The Bible is completely myth. There is obviously some real history there.

But a person claiming that The Bible is 100% accurate and valid history and contains no mythology is every bit as ignorant. We can even see where the biblical writers often borrowed their myths from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Nobody can be 100% certain of anything.

But in the practical universe, there is no more reason to believe in the existence of God than there is in the existence of bigfoot, tooth fairies, Santa Claus or Luke Skywalker. The explanation is the same for all of them: no verifiable evidence. God is a completely imaginary human invention.
Dead right. And again, whether or not god or gods exist, we can be quite certain that the god Yahweh, one of several patron deities of some sects of ancient Hebrews, is simply legendary, just as are Thor, Vishnu and Apollo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
Your questions seem to be based on a misunderstanding of science and logic...
Talk about an understatement!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
Before I was a believer, I was a miserable human being. I couldn't stand people and I was very selfish and prided myself on shutting people down both mentally and physically. I blamed my family for many horrible things that happened to me and used it as a crutch as to why I was the way I was.

I was addicted to drugs, alcohol, pornography, and destructive relationships. Nothing in this world gave me "true joy". The joke that is rehabilitation didn't work. I was pretty much ready to die and or be committed to a looney hospital.

I was told that I suffered from a myriad of mental disorders. Rx's never worked. These struggles lasted the majority of my life until a few years ago when I just so happened to start reading the book of Matthew. I don't know why I started reading. But a feeling of utter joy and relief came over me as I accepted the things being said as truth.
I am glad you have found something that works for you and helps you in your life. Sincerely. But the kind of person you describe yourself as before finding religion says a lot more about you and your mental state than it does about the validity of your current belief system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Even though I'm an atheist, questions like yours make me think it's probably better for most of humanity to believe in some kind of God. Perhaps people need God in their lives to have a sense of hope and purpose. Whatever makes people happy and sleep better at night is fine by me. I am absolutely comfortable with it as long as I am free to do the same.
Well spoken.
 
Old 01-12-2013, 07:46 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 8,259,160 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
Why is there no reason ? how do you possibly know for sure ?


Why does there have to be a reason (especially one acceptable to you)?

How can you possibly know for sure, which is what you are demanding from others?

You obviously have no facts or evidence to rely on, only your own blindly biased opinions. These opinions do not equate to fact.
 
Old 01-12-2013, 07:50 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 8,259,160 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
pretty easy :

everything that begins to exist , has a cause.
the universe began to exist.
therefore it has a cause.

Kalaam cosmological argument......
And your fact based, scientific and provable proof of this?

Your faulty logic is exposed in your own post.

Everything begins to exist? What about this god of yours who you claim has always existed? If it applies to this entity (unseen and unproven) why can it not apply to the universe?


Hmmmmmm.
 
Old 01-12-2013, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,375,913 times
Reputation: 3735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
So they keep hiding behind willfull ignorance, despite the fact that never before in history there was so much scientific knowledge of our surrounding.......

And there is a LOT we DO know, which permits a lot of predictions......

Like complex , specified information, as contained in each living cell ?!!

Do you honestly believe, Shakespeare's Hamlet could be the result of pure chance, or physical necessity ?

that is just a example......

Quote:
Wow again! Your pathologically inept claimed understanding of how biochemical evolution works is again proudly trotted out. <cue the sounds of intellects everywhere barphhing in unison...>

Where DO you get such nonsense? "Doctor" Carl Baugh been on the phone with you again, late at night, when he's drunk?

Sadly for you, we realist-scientists can easily demonstrate how a self-reproducing system of codes, full of inherited safety replicants (codons that duplicate function for example) can and do mutate on a measurable frequency, and when they do predictably produce a positive or improved version, it's faithfully replicated. Negatives are of course lost because they are, well, negative! and this elludes your intellect again and again? Wow? Maybe you're just not cut out for this kind of God-Defense thinking and bloviationisms?

So how do you postulate that Shakespeare do this again? "No, forsooth, I do not liketh that last phrase, and I know my patrons will also not-eht! So I will changeth it, forthwith, to a better version in truth, to taketh away that stench!"

Your questioning or proposing that's how Shakespeare did his best work? And replicated it by the uncountable trillion-gahzilion X 10^billionth power times, all of it being tested by an active environment?

Obviously your scientific illiteracy know no bounds. Or alternately and sadly, do you just like to prod us with calculated stupidity? That it, Jah? That's going to be my new model for you, since you insist on demoing it daily here.
...without volcanos, earthquakes, amongst many other natural phenomenas, life would not be possible on earth...... the whole universe is finely tuned to permit life on earth. Chance this to be by chance has been calculated to be unimaginably remote. how do you explain this in a reasonable way, excluding purpose and will ??

Quote:
Backwards Christian meta-think as usual. Again, you are fitting the hole in the ground to the puddle of water, as if the puddle pre-existed or the hole was later Intelligently Designed to fit the water. What illogical clap-trap.

Fact, and easily demo'd to be: We exist in the transient form and functionality we currently do as the best for now, FIT into the existing parameters of this planet and the earth that resulted from a chaotic universe's creation. Why did God not make a whole line-up of ID designed and life-sustaining planets, all nicely pre-fitted to out necessary specs? Mars? Jupiter? Venus? Pluto?

Because this one we live on was by pure chance and luck is why. Obviously. And its been only a short time that it has indeed allowed such a fit. Initially it was not suitable for life such as us and our predecessors, and we've many times come close to extinction. Which will obviously happen again, Christian stuck-in-time thinking notwithdstanding
And what does it need to say confidently : we can exclude chance and physical necessity for sure ( the only two alternatives to a creator ) ??

We do not know in the sense of having absolute proofs, but we don't need them to get the best explanation based on what we do know.

So your conclusion is not 100% sure, as you said above ?
Nope. Never said that, but your invisible God who Insta-Poofed everything into place in 6 days (why did it take him that long, btw?) version is very much like a claim that we all came, one sunny Sunday, as a philosophical god-Phart issued from out of the rose-dolored rear end of a prancing unicorn. Without even a shred of evidence for such a claim, or for your god, not to mention the disconnect with all the other fairy-tale versions of Gods and Creation. Plus, despite His omnipotence, He refuses to EVER show His face, but of course, He being a phartillusion, never will.

Meantime, we scientists plod along, taking intelligent and logical hypothesis testing to ever-higher planes of technical ability, and then we do indeed at least see consistent evidence of our ever-more plausible version. And notably, ours is added to regularly with new info as predicted and then pretty much now found to be so.

Higg's particle for example, which so many fundy Christians were told to hate! Can't have new irrefutible strong evidence (evidence that you will nonetheless then rote-chant deny exists....) all while claiming your version is robustly supported by real "evidence", the kind our findings are apparently so lacking in!

Btw, isn't rampant coveting and jealousy of other's riches and intellect a sin in you folks' Big Golden Book of Fancy? )

Of course, unless you live in a cave or your mother's basement and don't EVER get out or read anything, you know this relentless accumulation of real and demonstrable FACTS to be true right?: (spherical earth versus what again? A Universe NOT revolving around the earth versus what again? An accurate and plausible geological column of distinctly different time epochs for dinos and much later, men, versus what again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
Why is there no reason ? how do you possibly know for sure ?
Q: Well then, uhmmm.. errr... How do you then "Know for sure"? I mean, in the face of all that of biblical dogma that has been so well discredited as regards your claimed-special knowledge of the universe and life on earth? Or do you deny those discreditations as well?

And, for the record yet again, scientist's ideas are never absolutely "For Sure", but when it walks like a platypus [Ornithorhynchus], talks like one and looks like one, and it's recently done DNA lineage map clearly shows it to be of and from known Ornithorhynchus predecessors, findable [as "evidence, btw, JAH...] located in the fossil and sedimentary record, all neatly chronologically separated, oldest being deeper, youngest, including yesterday's recent dead, then we are in a damn-site more defensible position than you are finding yourselves in as time ticks along and defensible evidence-supported knowledge goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD39 View Post
But atheists will claim as fact that there is no God and the Bible is completely myth. I think if anyone is going to claim something as fact then the onus is on them to back it up . Why do atheists automatically get off the hook?
We don't. We continue to show our reasoning and repeatable facts as supportive. Now it's your turn, but you reliably retreat or yell out ad hominems. OK: That's the best you can do. Go for it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post

√ Your questions seem to be based on a misunderstanding of science and logic. For example, the fact we don't know what happened before the Big Bang doesn't necessitate the existence of a divinity.

√ This is the same with the Cosmological argument. The fact we don't know the answer doesn't mean god is the answer. It just means that we don't know the answer.

√ This is proof that naturalism/materialism make the most sense. Rather than adding a pseudo unproven explanation, naturalism or materialism are philosophies that get rid of that unnecessary god answer that merely complicates things, but rather those philosophies propose waiting until there is an explanation backed by empirically verified evidence.
right on, AS. And the Christian response is??? (<snore... critetz>)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
rifleman,

The discovery of the higgs boson particle only added another link in the chain of particles. If the boson particle imparts matter/gravity to other particles, then what gives the boson said matter/gravity? My guess is an even smaller particle that we will try to discover next.
Point was, jda, TWD, Jah, and all the other identical thinking apologist-minds out there, that Christians were instructed in their local sermons and Xtian pseudo-science websites, to dislike the idea of an explicatory particle that was in fact only an additive hypothesis, but now fact.

Why such fear and loathing in the congregation?? Because it turned out to be a predictably accurate piece of additional information, and the increased resolution it represents also represents a real threat to "Keep it at the level of knowledge of the church in, say, 1569, and we'll all be fine!" thinking of staid minds-set-in-cement Christians.

Btw, science will never cease to explore whatever it can, and the LHC, though a tad bit expensive (!!), now allows the most intense, reliable and nano-micro levels of defensible investigation ever brought on by the inquisitive minds of man. What it finds in the future, despite Christianity's attempts at meddling, will form the basis for very useful models of our universe and it's origins. Tough sledding for those stuck forever in the bronze age of thinking!

New ideas that scientists keep coming up with and then demo'ing is indeed a growing and real threat to stultified religious thinking, lest they lose their stranglehold on the illiterate.

Better watch out Jah, TWD and jda: you'll die that way: all illiterate an' stuff! God forbid, huh?

Last edited by rifleman; 01-12-2013 at 08:11 AM..
 
Old 01-12-2013, 08:19 PM
 
1,639 posts, read 1,567,284 times
Reputation: 1200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis View Post
I am glad you have found something that works for you and helps you in your life. Sincerely. But the kind of person you describe yourself as before finding religion says a lot more about you and your mental state than it does about the validity of your current belief system.
As I told Hiker, It isn't religion. Atheists are quick to correct someone about what exactly their non belief entails, and I will give that to them. Please extend the same courtesy to me.

And what does it mean when you say "it says a lot more about you and your mental state"?

To the people I have known for a very long time, it was proof of a modern day miracle to see the over night transformation that took place in my example. There can be no natural explanation. The "Born again" phrase is very appropriate.
 
Old 01-12-2013, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,089,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
To the people I have known for a very long time, it was proof of a modern day miracle to see the over night transformation that took place in my example. There can be no natural explanation. The "Born again" phrase is very appropriate.
My eldest brother underwent a similarly impressive transformation when he converted in the early 1960's. in fact the rest of the family, including yours truly, was moved by this to do the same. But it scarcely is unique to new believers. People do get their act together sometimes. And I am proof that you can experience much in the faith and still find it lacking, and eventually move on.

What my brother really did was grow up, and his faith gave him the mental framework and peer support to get him over the hump. That is no small thing, and it suffices often for the right person at the right place in their development -- sometimes for a season and sometimes for life. For my brother it sufficed until he got that fatal bone cancer diagnosis, and then I had to be the one to try to console him when he wondered what he had done wrong to receive such a punishment. At the end his faith prevented him from having a clear conscience because he couldn't get his arms around god abandoning him in his hour of need unless it was justified.
 
Old 01-13-2013, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
8,820 posts, read 6,366,929 times
Reputation: 4886
there's plenty of life out there in space, we just don't see it as such..chemicals that are needed to produce living organisms came here by comet! Right now a planet somewhere out there, may start to produce life, we just don't know it yet. There's no god needed to start anything...Space is expanding at a fascinating rate. And were learning more each day about it, no god needed. Religion has run its course I'd say.
 
Old 01-13-2013, 01:45 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
I have not asked to prove something. But to give good positive reasons for strong atheists to held their position.
Atheism and Naturalism are not synonyms. The thread is about the former, so asking me about the latter is entirely off topic. Keep trying though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
Who told you i have no evidence ?
Did I use the word "you" in the text you quoted? Read it again. I do not know what you have or do not have. I do however know what you have presented. Diddly squat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah888 View Post
God is one of the possible answers.
Try reading peoples posts before you reply. I already said and agreed with this. It is one of the possible answers. We all know that. That does not change the fact that currently it is a not just slightly, but ENTIRELY unsubstantiated answer.

Being possible and being credible/likely are entirely different things.
 
Old 01-13-2013, 02:24 AM
 
Location: St. Pete, FL
733 posts, read 1,301,730 times
Reputation: 656
will he ever stop?
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