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Old 03-26-2013, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,883 posts, read 31,765,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
There is also another theory which is that there was either an icy canopy surrounding earth or rings of ice such as is found around Saturn, which came down on the earth and caused torrents of water to come down from above.
Are you serious? Do you actually believe that this flood thing really happened? You gotta be pulling our legs, right?

 
Old 03-26-2013, 11:35 AM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,731,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Where do you think the water came from when the observer saw what appeared to be windows in the heavens opening and water gushing down on the earth through openings? Magic?
Peyote, or the FSM.
 
Old 03-26-2013, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,372,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post

Yeah, there are a handful who do it, like some species of trout and eels, but most can't switch to salinity/freshwater for any length of time and survive.
I suppose it's another case of God waving his magic wand and making it so.
Of course! Why didn't I think of that, weltschmerz? By GOLLY, it's pure Magic! And of course, with MAGIC, anything's possible, even an imaginary God you can pray to each night. However, after a while your young knees aren't so young no more, and it hurts to pray! So then, plus your mind grows up...then you quit and move on to tithing for free Godly consideration of your plight as a human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
No, you prove it wasn't possible. We can play this game till we die.
Already have, many MANY threads and posts ago. Someone below is exactly right about this: all the Moderator cut: delete do is just re-pose the same illiterate nonsense again and again, hoping it will "take", or that they're somehow winning. So... puh-leeze... do keep it up for our trusted readers; this is an example of the very best of what Christianity can do in a "debate"!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
According to data from the U.S. Geological Survey, the amount of water in the earth’s atmosphere could not possibly cover the earth.11 In fact:

Quote:
Originally Posted by laughing.rflmn
(rflmn's note: the excellent technical info presented was edited for brevity, esp. since it's all been covered again and again, ad infinitum. Then, the IDT'rs will re-posit the same baseless crap, as if they really understood hydrology. funny, huh?)
Simply put: there is not enough water in Earth’s atmosphere to raise the ocean’s levels over an inch, much less to cover Mt. Ararat with water from 40 days of rain. There is simply not that much water in the system.

[But even so...] ...even if water could enter Earth’s closed system, where did it go?

Simply put: there is no evidence whatsoever for a worldwide flood. In other words, it’s impossible. There is not enough water in the earth’s atmospheric system, or in completely melted icecaps, to even come close to covering all of the earth’s landmasses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Yup: no evidence, esp. in the geological column

And the theist's yowling retort? "Oh that old stuff? We know it's not to be believed; all of those millions of what you call "annual sediment layers" were in fact laid down in a week or less! What's that you say? Well... let me tell you! All those embedded shells and fossils and annual pollen layers and remains of dead & fossilized but annual spawning fish? All ... uhmm... welll.. errr. all of them were..uhmmm. errr... Oh skip it!

You know what? You atheist scientists are all just sad and angry people in search of some spiritual salvation!"
And so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
Well, Amaznjohn, you win this one.

I still point out that most scientists do not waste their time with this argument. The only people who care seem to be Bible literalists, who, in their desperation, feel threatened by the fact that they cannot get anyone else to go along with their ideas.

It must be hard to try to base one's life on a work of ancient fiction.
Yep indeed, but they also have to deal with the fact that the worldwide population of their fellow mythology believers is dwindling and getting more scarce than teeth on my Gallus domesticus sp. (Which, I'm assured, is simply a "type" or "kind" of giraffe...) Of course, your technical argument about possible sources of water was spot on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
I know. I just copied and pasted. Most theists require that the same argument be made over and over again, hoping that somehow we have forgotten our own arguments. Of course, no matter how many times they are repeated, the Bible literalists will continue to ignore them because it undermines their faith.
Ain't that the truth, AJ? Q: did they miss out with the first 5 or 20 carefully detailed hydrology explanations back a few years here on C-D? Or do they just close their mind-holes to any new info? Or did they gain absolution last Sunday from their equally techno-traumatized and frightened priest? One or all of the above I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Actually religion is what frightens me the most, as religionists seem to want to go back to the "good old days."

"During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for 800 years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry." Mark Twain
Yah gotz'tah luv ol' Mark, huh? A well-spoken atheist if I ever heard one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
... I even remember the [theist's] rebuttal for that one from my theist days. The Bible says "the great fountains of the deep were broken up" so a lot of the water came out of subterranean sources that existed at the time. Also it was generally stated that there was a lot more water in the atmosphere at the time, with a great cloud cover we don't have now, although where that came from other than someone's posterior, I don't know.

That's the beauty of theism, you just keep making stuff up.

In fairness, though, (and who knows why I'm bothering to be fair) you can't assume conditions in the past were the same as conditions now. Still, if I'm not mistaken, what it would require to cover the entire planet in water deep enough to submerge mountains is so over the top that it's difficult to imagine an antediluvian configuration that would actually make that possible and still have allowed the planet to be habitable for human kind.

Then again, they can just say it was a miracle and move on.
Yes, I remember a post some years back now right here on C-D.. (God that scares me, that I"ve actually been fighting ignorance here for "years". Oh well; back at it. No time to daly!)...

..and where was I? Oh yeah... that some reputable published journal article a few years back said that research studies had shown the "possibility" of mass volumes of water contained in sub-surface micro-pores, much like oil is found. They also noted that evne if it did exist as they hypothesized (remember now; that's the oft-derided "guesswork" part of The SM...) it was indeed down about 2 - 3 miles as I recall. With no easy egress for any of it, even if it wanted to come forth!

And, a NOTE to the geologically illiterate here: There are no giant pools of nicely refined gasoline or diesel oil just a'waiting for us to tap into it.

Ditto for water: it would take a few billion wellheads down to that spectacular depth, all somehow capable of then causing the micro-pore-contained water to WANT TO rise up to the surface, all insta-quick-like, " 'cause we'ze gotz us a fludd to create in just a few short days!".

Then, it would have to upwell like the literal dickens, leaving all those micropore holes unfulfilled. Which then generates the Florida or Louisiana sink-hole phenom, caused by the removal of the entirety of that supporting water column. Q: did the bible happen to mention massive unfillable sink-holes? Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbKDgF8CvmQ

or these... (you still with us, Eusebius, or is this too technical for yah?). BTW, this one is fascinating, if we create these salt domes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcbLvO0-huQ

Anyhow, that didn't stop the ardent and desperate theist fringe crowd from loudly proclaiming that "science has proven the source of the great fludd waters!" No amount of quiet discussion could stop them from their rants, and suddenly, science was on their side! Only when they wanted it to be, of course. Very Selective and Convenient. Right, Eusebius?

Oh. Her it is: your technical explanation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Not really. No one in the ark was crushed. God didn't have to suspend any law to keep the arkists alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Nope, no need for a miracle.

The mountains in Noah's day were not nearly as tall as they are today. They may have been from a few hundred foot tall to a few thousand foot tall.

Imagine a huge amount of hydrogen surrounding the planet. Now imagine that hydrogen being pulled into the atmosphere in streams. It would appear to the observer that windows of heaven were opened and huge streams of water pouring into the earth because when oxygen combines with hydrogen it causes water.
Huh? "Imagine a huge amount of hydrogen surrounding this planet!" And then it pours, as what, liquid hydrogen? You do know the temp required for liquid hydrogen, right? (Let's look it up, why don't we? Oh: here it is: -252˚ Celcius. Wow, huh? mighty cold, even for GOd's hip pocket!) And yet... there was also life on the planet at the same time? The life God had to snuff out? Why not just let your imagined liquid hydrogen bath do it?

WTF, Eusebius, where do you get this stuff? Can I please have some'them 'shrooms that YOU are obviously chewin' on?

Still, as as been carefully and repeatedly explained to you, if we melted it all, we'd only see a few feet of water level rise. Oh, and so then, why is the Ark up on Ararat @ 13k+ ft ASL, if there were no mountains? You're confusing us all, Eusee baby! Mordant here asks the obvious:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
And you know this how?
Like this: Eusebius: go to your local highschool science lab, would you? Then ask the teacher to give you access to some hydrogen and oxygen. (PS: you'll note that he quickly clears out of there...). Oh, and here's our legally required disclaimer, btw...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
HaHa. You can't just put hydrogen and oxygen in the same space and make water. There must be a chemical reaction, typically setting the mixture on fire. You apologists really need to think these things through before making outrageous claims.
Exactly! AJ! You can indeed mix them both, as gases, in a nice beaker. Then, with the Big E looking straight down into this heavenly mixture, he tosseth in a Godly lit match.

Children, today's science lecture for our science-illiterate friends here, including the delightfully incurious Eusebius, is...


Faraday Lecture - Hydrogen/Oxygen Explosions - YouTube

Please pay attention from time stamp 2:00, Big E: Is this is what you suggest is the source of all the necessary fludd waterz?

But also note that you won't have to shave for several weeks! H2O: the violent chemical oxidization process that follows ignition by a nearby lightning storm is, well, spectacular:

See: footage of the Hindenburg, which was also [stupidly I'd add...] filled with hydrogen gas.

All together now: chant, just like you do in church: Explosion! Explosion!!

So how do we scientists get to know all this stuff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The same way you know what you know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Science? I don't think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Where do you think the water came from when the observer saw what appeared to be windows in the heavens opening and water gushing down on the earth through openings? Magic?
Oh. Well... uhmmm... thuh k'rect ansur is: it didn't happen at all! The author of such stuff was obviously 1) seriously dehydrated from his days wandering the desert lookin' for some miracles to write up, and 2) like to have recently eaten some hallucinogenic 'shrooms, the ones which that passer-by Jesus minstrel gave him in a small "dime bag"! "These'll furshur blow your mind!" was the claim...

You're just not paying attention, now are you, young man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Are you serious? Do you actually believe that this flood thing really happened? You gotta be pulling our legs, right?
Yeah, I'm afraid he does believe in it, sans: heart and soul! Sadly for him, his hole's been pre-dug, and he's happily layin' in it as it filleth up with the choking mud of gloriously self-inflicted ignorance!

Or... he's juss' playing us for the fools he thinks we are, and he's also hoping that all his co-parrotting chums here on C-D are cheering him on as he thinks he's making fools of us!

A noble pastime to be sure! Fighting truth and facts! Great use of his time!

Last edited by june 7th; 03-26-2013 at 04:38 PM..
 
Old 03-26-2013, 04:06 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,934,877 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Are you serious? Do you actually believe that this flood thing really happened? You gotta be pulling our legs, right?
I'm as serious as a heart attack. Are you serious? You actuall do not believe that this flood thing really didn't happen?
You gotta be pulling my legs!
 
Old 03-26-2013, 04:12 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,934,877 times
Reputation: 992
rifleman, who said anything about liquid hydrogen? You are making a straw man argument to easily knock over.

I hope in the future you will learn not to use these type of fallacious arguments.

2ndly, you need to prove such a witness to the water pouring out of the heavens through what appeared as holes in the sky was water deprived or was eating hallucinogenic mushrooms. Oh, those are just two more straw man arguments and a no no in any serious argument from either side of the debate. Please learn from your mistakes. So far you are getting an F on your paper.

Also, I'm not trying to make fools out of anyone.

Last edited by Eusebius; 03-26-2013 at 04:20 PM..
 
Old 03-26-2013, 05:58 PM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,731,664 times
Reputation: 1252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
rifleman, who said anything about liquid hydrogen? You are making a straw man argument to easily knock over.

I hope in the future you will learn not to use these type of fallacious arguments.

2ndly, you need to prove such a witness to the water pouring out of the heavens through what appeared as holes in the sky was water deprived or was eating hallucinogenic mushrooms. Oh, those are just two more straw man arguments and a no no in any serious argument from either side of the debate. Please learn from your mistakes. So far you are getting an F on your paper.

Also, I'm not trying to make fools out of anyone.
Regardless of whether you're trying or not, you're certainly making your literalist friends look like fools. The burden of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim, which, in this case is you.
 
Old 03-26-2013, 07:18 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,934,877 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Regardless of whether you're trying or not, you're certainly making your literalist friends look like fools. The burden of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim, which, in this case is you.
Regardless of whether you're trying or not, you're certainly making your non-literalist friends look like fools. The burden of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim, which, in this case is you.
 
Old 03-26-2013, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,883 posts, read 31,765,340 times
Reputation: 12628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I'm as serious as a heart attack. Are you serious? You actuall do not believe that this flood thing really didn't happen?
You gotta be pulling my legs!
Since you used a double negative, you described my views correctly....Your fludd is an impossibility, and never happened.
 
Old 03-26-2013, 07:50 PM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,731,664 times
Reputation: 1252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Regardless of whether you're trying or not, you're certainly making your non-literalist friends look like fools. The burden of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim, which, in this case is you.
How childish..."I know you are, but what am I?"
 
Old 03-26-2013, 08:09 PM
 
Location: NW NJ & SE Oahu
4,556 posts, read 5,402,261 times
Reputation: 4147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Imagine a huge amount of hydrogen surrounding the planet. Now imagine that hydrogen being pulled into the atmosphere in streams. It would appear to the observer that windows of heaven were opened and huge streams of water pouring into the earth because when oxygen combines with hydrogen it causes water.

I think I'm getting it now, that's where Holy Water comes from.
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