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Old 03-06-2013, 03:42 PM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,284,580 times
Reputation: 2973

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalite View Post
But I am being true to myself.
No. You are not. You say something like "I have to walk away and just agree to disagree" then not moments later are right back doing the exact opposite... it does indeed appear you can not even be true to yourself and your own words. Don't get me wrong.... I could not care less whether you post again or not.... I just thought it worth pointing out that if you want people to find honesty and truth in what you say.... you might erode such credibility by acting in such ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalite View Post
I'm being asked for proof of things that to me is as obvious as looking at an elephant and when I point out the elephant, I'm being told the elephant isn't there.
I am not telling you the elephant is not there. I am telling you that I see no reason whatsoever to think there is one there and I am asking you if you have any evidence that it is. If you do not that is fine... I am not putting a gun to your head and demanding you give me any. But if you have nothing to support your position then simply admit that and move on.

But this is a debate forum at its core and if you make a claim people are going to ask you to substantiate it. And so we should. So yes... if you think there is a god or want to claim there is one.... I am perfectly likely (and entitled) to enquire if you have any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to substantiate such a position.

If not then thats fine, but "Well it is obvious to me" certainly is not going to cut any mustard as they say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalite View Post
What else is there to say? We'd end up running in circles.
Which I am perfectly happy to do and wish more people would do on the subject of god. The more people who highlight the fact theistic claims are not just slightly... but ENTIRELY... unsubstantiated the better I feel. And the more squirming, hand waving, smoke and mirrors and copping out those theists do in front of everyone the better too.

I very much do want to live in a world where people who espouse unsubstantiated claims get called on them... and get called on them remorselessly and frequently.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,639 posts, read 24,841,505 times
Reputation: 11318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalite View Post
It's been a very personal experience and my experience with God is that he manifests in people's lives in personal ways, but I've found is that those who have had encounters with him report that is nature is unconditionally loving and that's one theme that remains to me. The aim is not to isolate you when I say these things, not even to offend you, it's just that you haven't experienced it for yourself and it's almost impossible to take my word on it, nor do I even want you to. My posts are for people already seeking, who already are open to the possibility of these things happening. Beyond that, there's no hope of me imparting any of this information to you because we see it from different eyes. I only share with you what my experience has been. Subjective though it may be, it does not discredit the validity of the experience. It is enough for me, though it may not be for you. And I'm perfectly fine with that. You, I see, are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalite View Post
I know...he's so good...excuse me for trying to be open and polite about things.
Then you're posting in the wrong folder.

Quote:
This sub-forum is not the place for proselytizing or attempting to convert atheists or agnostics. It is meant for atheists and agnostics interested in discussions among themselves and for others who want to learn more about this worldview and are interested in posing non-confrontational questions to atheists or agnostics. Use our main Religion and Philosophy forum if you want to debate the merits of this worldview (but do a search first to see if your topics have already been discussed).
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Athens, Greece
526 posts, read 579,884 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
That fails to agree with the definition of the word "god" that appears in any dictionary I've ever heard of. Changing word definitions for yourself makes communication very difficult.
Do your dictionaries explain why George Washington was considered a god by the Americans, or what definition of the term “god” they had in mind in this particular case?

Please read my response to Maggie’s post right below.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Athens, Greece
526 posts, read 579,884 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
thanks Arequipa, yes Maggie knows but she's rendered speechless!
The person who knows is never rendered speechless.

Washington was god to Americans (they depict him as Jesus ascending to the skies and as Zeus), Alexander was considering himself a god and so did the Roman emperors and the Egyptian Pharaohs. Osiris, the god, has his name inscribed on a cartouche like any other Pharaoh.
To be a Pharaoh, one had to belong to the priestly class. To be a Pharaoh, a god, one had to be a priest!

There is something going wrong here. Don’t’ you think?

If you ever decide to find out what is actually going on you’ll find that the gods were the patricians of the antiquity (the term “patricians” for the gods is used by the translators of the Egyptian hieroglyphic writings). They belonged to the ruling class but they were wicked and inhuman. Their subjects revolted and they had to step down and leave. They managed, however, to remain in power as the heroes who vanquished the tyrannical gods.
As humans never learn from their mistakes, they continued to behave badly and the people asked for the gods to come back!
It was then that they told the people that the gods had climbed a ladder each and went to live on the clouds, naming them, the heroes, as their representatives to rule in their absence (Marduk, for example, the famous Babylonian god, was named Father of the gods by the assembly of the gods that he had already killed).

No god ever climbed a ladder to go and live on top of the clouds. All gods lived on earth and for 30,000 years now the only gods are the representatives of the non-existent heavenly gods, the priests: the popes and bishops!
So, dear Maggie, you were speechless and shocked for no reason at all.

I wish you a pleasant (and sunny, I hope) day in beautiful Belgium.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
8,820 posts, read 6,368,254 times
Reputation: 4886
no sun today dtango, but thank you anyway,
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Athens, Greece
526 posts, read 579,884 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Then you're posting in the wrong folder.
I guess you are right. In this folder the agnostics are protected against attacks from theists and atheists alike (when I attacked you, presuming you were an agnostic, my post was deleted) but I am not a theist. I am a fundamentalist atheist (with a conscious and justifiable dislike for agnostics).
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:58 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 32,116,018 times
Reputation: 14896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainelander View Post
Aa vocal minority (well i hope it's a minority!) of atheists who seem to have just chosen to be atheist without any actual reasoning or reason to do so.
How much reasoning necessary to not believe in something? Do you really need to spend time weighing whether or not some big guy in the ether is sitting in judgement over mankind? Do we demand people intensely contemplate the existence of the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus? I think not.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:30 AM
 
39,202 posts, read 10,880,280 times
Reputation: 5096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalite View Post
But I am being true to myself. I'm just a little taken aback that people can be so flat. It all seems so open and obvious to me, like drinking water or walking with the lights on, but I'm being asked for proof of things that to me is as obvious as looking at an elephant and when I point out the elephant, I'm being told the elephant isn't there. It's a little puzzling to me and the reason why i keep saying we'd have to just agree to disagree is because I'm getting a lesson in how perception shapes reality. It's basically my way of saying that I'm realizing that some things are better not getting into if you know there's really no hope there. What else is there to say? We'd end up running in circles.
I can understand your position. You are far from being alone in being convinced that your experience of what you take to be the personal contact with God is real and true and anyone who questions that just doesn't understand and if only they could experience the same thing, they'd know it was true.

Believe me, I know exactly where you are coming from. And yet the flat (your term) fact of logic and reason is that there is no reason to suppose that what you are experiencing (or think you are) really is personal contact with God.

First off - Which God? Of course, you will say that it is of course the same as what all those Muslim, Catholic and Buddhist mystics experience. I'm sure it is - I do not in any way deny the reality of the Mystical experience, but the 'flat' fact is that one cannot exclusively link it with any one of the personal gods. It is as best a possible contact with a Sortagod and in no way justifies any kind of organized or formulated religion, its Holy Books, or the man made god it holds to be true.

Let me stop there and see how far we got. Are you still maintaining a spiritual experience of a particular god of a particular religion or can you agree with me that this experience - which might yet possibly be with a divine being of some kind - is in no way a validation of man -made religions, and linking it with any one of the Personal gods is simply a personal convenience?

This is about atheism as a faith because it is the showing up of God-claims as untenable that validates the atheist position. Right now I have got as far as asking you whether, on analysis of your OWN experiences, subjected to a bit of simple reasoning, you can concede that irreligious Theism is the only logical and rational view of someone who has your 'God- experience'.

Let's see where we go on that before we progress to the next stage.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:05 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,941,099 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalite View Post
Do you guys really not see that believing solely in your 5 senses and/or science requires faith that your 5 senses is all there is and that what science is providing you is guaranteed?
It makes no difference whether this requires faith or not, since it has nothing to do with being an atheist. All it takes to be an atheist is to not believe in any gods, no matter what the reason.

And can you provide an example of someone who thinks that science is infallible? If not, your comment is doubly irrelevant. Not only does it not refer to atheists, it also doesn't refer to any actual person at all.

Quote:
Faith, by definition, and I'll quote it for you from the dictionary, "something that is believed especially with strong conviction". There's many different ways to use the term and that's what I mean when I say it. Synonyms include, confidence, trust, credence...
So a Christian who trusts their spouse has two different faiths? Can you really call them truly a Christian if they follow more than one faith?

See, it's easy to play word games by substituting various meanings for the word faith as it fits your argument. There's nothing honest or interesting about it, but if it makes you feel better keep doing it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:11 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,941,099 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalite View Post
But I am being true to myself. I'm just a little taken aback that people can be so flat.
Flat? You make it sound like having standards of evidence for believing in things is a bad thing.

Quote:
It all seems so open and obvious to me, like drinking water or walking with the lights on, but I'm being asked for proof of things that to me is as obvious as looking at an elephant and when I point out the elephant, I'm being told the elephant isn't there.
If it is so obvious, why are you having so much trouble actually presenting evidence for your belief?

Quote:
What else is there to say? We'd end up running in circles.
This doesn't happen for claims about real things which people have evidence for.
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