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Old 02-05-2013, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Space Coast
1,988 posts, read 4,633,787 times
Reputation: 2749

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The Colorado bill died yesterday. Hopefully the others will have the same fate. Right now it is legal to teach creationism alongside evolution in Louisiana and Tennessee. However my preliminary data shows that what individual teachers are actually teaching hasn't changed all that much. (Most were illegally teaching creationism anyway.)
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:11 PM
 
16,101 posts, read 17,899,425 times
Reputation: 15895
Quote:
Originally Posted by DauntlessDan View Post
This is clearly unconstitutional!

As I stated before in this forum, "separation of church and state" is NOT in the constitution of the United States but IS in the constitution of the former USSR. I think you have your constitutions mixed up.

<snipped what I am not answering>

Why does this scare you if, as you believe, evolution is emperically correct? All the creationists want is equal time to present their views. If your views (evolution) are so unchallengable then this will be evident, won't it? You may counter and say "that's what religious schools are for". Well, true but religious schools are not funded with taxpayer dollars. If we had a true voucher system in this country they would be. But if they want to send their children to a religious school, they have to pay for it AND still fund the secular schools. Why not teach BOTH sides of the argument and let them decide? Or give the religious leaning a chance to opt out of funding secular schools and have a true voucher system.
The words separation of church and state are not in the constitution, but the idea certainly is.

Quote:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
On Faith Panelists Blog: First Amendment includes separation of church and state - Charles C. Haynes

Originally, this only applied to the federal government, but it was extended to state governments in 1947 in Everson v. Board of Education

Everson v Board of Education

Quote:
The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."
Both affirming and dissenting Justices were decisive that the Constitution required a sharp separation between government and religion and their strongly worded opinions paved the way to a series of later court decisions that taken together brought about profound changes in legislation, public education, and other policies involving matters of religion.

I am not scared at all of Creationism but junk science should not be taught in science class. Creationism and Intelligent Design have NO scientific basis. They cannot be falsified and you cannot use them to make predictions about the world. We cannot waste precious time debating this in a science class where there are so many scientific concepts that need to be taught.

Why creationism is unscientific
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,769,092 times
Reputation: 12628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
You're right, dammit! We have to get organized, someone has to step up and get this fight started.

Therefore I am announcing today, my candidacy for President of the Atheists. I seek the office not for the prestige or personal honor, or even the salary, rather I wish only to serve the needs of American atheists across the nation.

So vote for me, because I never lie, I'm always right, and I understand everything.


ps....automatic pick of any cabinet position to first poster to second my nomination.
You truly are a Grandstander.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:36 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,742,175 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by DauntlessDan View Post
As I stated before in this forum, "separation of church and state" is NOT in the constitution of the United States but IS in the constitution of the former USSR. I think you have your constitutions mixed up.
So you are saying Thomas Jefferson was a Communist?



Quote:
I agree, it's been headed that way since the early 1960s
The education system has been in decline from the start of the cold war?

Quote:
no, actually for the past 30 or so years the "religious right" has been subject to the whims of the "atheistic left" Just look at all of the recent lawsuits against christianity and all of the organizations that have sprung up to remove any symbol of religion from the public place
awe, you poor oppressed people simply can't keep religion to yourselves? And yet you are too hypocritical to allow Atheists to express themselves as you do without complaints, death threats, and violence? I guess we have a problem... how are we going to settle it? It seems to you, secularism is far too oppressive since it doesn't allow you to get in the faces of atheists who try to access government and public places. Or perhaps you would allow our motto to be "There is no God" once atheists make up 51% of the population? somehow I doubt your resolution.


Quote:
Good for you. Let others be proud of what they are and not have to suffer your wrath.
What wrath is that again? posting in forums?

Quote:
Why does this scare you if, as you believe, evolution is emperically correct? All the creationists want is equal time to present their views. If your views (evolution) are so unchallengable then this will be evident, won't it? You may counter and say "that's what religious schools are for". Well, true but religious schools are not funded with taxpayer dollars. If we had a true voucher system in this country they would be. But if they want to send their children to a religious school, they have to pay for it AND still fund the secular schools. Why not teach BOTH sides of the argument and let them decide? Or give the religious leaning a chance to opt out of funding secular schools and have a true voucher system.
All the creationists want is government money and subsidies to access the vulnerable minds of our children. The Earth going around the Sun is empirically correct, and if we start teaching that the Sun goes around the Earth... there is going to be problems. Creationsists have all the equal time in the world right there in Private Schools... right there in their homes. No money for attending religious schools, simple as that. The most I would give you is a tax break for not attending public school, but then again, you probably aren't using all the roads in your state.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:48 AM
 
16,437 posts, read 19,140,430 times
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Originally Posted by Griffis View Post
Seconded!

And I'd like to be Secretary of the Interior of the Red Light District, if you please.
Can I be Chaplain?
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:00 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,186 posts, read 11,001,573 times
Reputation: 7420
Quote:
Originally Posted by DauntlessDan View Post

<cut>
Why does this scare you if, as you believe, evolution is emperically correct? All the creationists want is equal time to present their views. If your views (evolution) are so unchallengable then this will be evident, won't it? <cut>
Your argument is irrelevant. It is already clear that we cannot make a religion class part of the school schedule. Evolution is taught as a part of a science or biology class. Most everyone agrees that at least some aspects of some degrees of evolution are clearly true, testable, repeatable, etc., using commonly accepted scientific methods. During which class would you propose that it would be appropriate to teach creationism, and how would you propose it be taught without mention of religion or God (since that would be an obvious violation of the 1st Amendment)? What methods would you propose teachers use to validate their teachings about creationism?
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