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The value placed upon a human being in the absence of a God is inferior to the value if there is one. The reason being is that the value could change according to our will. If the value is subject to such an elastic will as ours, then there can really be no inherent value at all.
The value of our life is totally up to us....Life is what you make of it.
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Consequence for actions in a world where human beings have inherent value are different than subjective consequences. I feel like you are assuming a reality rather than projecting a possible one.
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean here.
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If there is no God, then we are the authors of morality. If we are the authors of morality, then morality is subject to change upon our whim. If morality is subject to change, then there is no absolute morality. If there is no absolute morality, then our judgements of actions are inane. If our judgements of actions are inane, then all things are permitted/justified, morally.
There has never been, nor will there ever be absolute morality....Morality has always been subject to change....If you want evidence of that read your bible. In the old testament rape, slavery and other things considered immoral today were perfectly fine.
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I do not believe that morality can be explained sufficiently without a celestial author.
My morality may be different than your morality. A Muslim's, a Jew's or any one of hundreds of other religious beliefs will not have the same morality as you do...In fact many would say that you are immoral...So I guess you must think there are hundreds of "celestial authors" ...Morality is and always will be subjective in accordance to the society in which you live.
Nice post Txt. I would argue with the Frog that a flexible morality is not as good as a (supposedly) absolute morality. In fact,the supposedly God -given morality is as flexible as the relative one. In fact one could almost say it was wilful, since what it comes down to is 'What God says is good, is good, even if we think it's bad'.
So we not only have a relative and wilful morality but a dual morality - what our innate nature tells us is good (which is how a 'relative' morality operates) and a 'God says' morality which is good even if it goes against what we instinctively think of a 'good'. It is justified' as part of God's intentions for us. The argument about Biblical tolerance (not to say endorsement) of slavery is a case in point.
(1) either slavery is justified
(2) it was ok,but times have changed and now it is wrong
(3) it was always wrong but God sorta had to go along with it because it's what people did.
(1) evil
(2) relative and then some
(3) despicable.
The Bible is no place to find morality and give me relative morality every time.
The value placed upon a human being in the absence of a God is inferior to the value if there is one. The reason being is that the value could change according to our will. If the value is subject to such an elastic will as ours, then there can really be no inherent value at all.
Consequence for actions in a world where human beings have inherent value are different than subjective consequences. I feel like you are assuming a reality rather than projecting a possible one.
If there is no God, then we are the authors of morality. If we are the authors of morality, then morality is subject to change upon our whim. If morality is subject to change, then there is no absolute morality. If there is no absolute morality, then our judgements of actions are inane. If our judgements of actions are inane, then all things are permitted/justified, morally. I do not believe that morality can be explained sufficiently without a celestial author.
What if God suddenly decided tomorrow that murder was moral, would you then consider murder as moral?
What if God suddenly decided tomorrow that murder was moral, would you then consider murder as moral?
If the answer is "no", then it is conceded that morality exists independent of any deity.
If the answer is "yes"... well, that says a lot about the individual answering.
Of course, we can test this in the real world. There are societies, generally primitive and isolated, that have no concept of deities. Yet they have morality. We can look at regions of the United States and expect, if the thesis that morality comes from God is true, that -- for example -- regions with higher belief should have lower rates of crime. Yet the states of the American Bible Belt have amongst the highest violent crime rates. And around the world, belief in God (or the local superman-in-the-sky variation) does not tend to correlate with lower crime rates.
I'm sure the "Morality comes from God" idea is firmly held by those who espouse it, but the real-world evidence simply does not back it up.
That survey is crap.Accordingto the 2011 census 22% of australians are atheists.
And yes, the end of something which sees suffering as good is a fantastic thing.
Thanks, Wild Colonial Girl (I am sure there must be a song, somewhere... ) for the upgrade from 10% to 20% +. That's those who say that they are atheists. The numbers of those who are not sure and so avoid the atheist term or who don't do religion but think there probably is a god are probably much higher.
The percentage of irreligion is I am sure, far higher and realization that not being sure whether a god exists doesnot mean that one cannot be sure that Biblegod doesn't exist or that even believing in Biblegod does no preclude disenchantment with the man -made churches is surely going to send that percentage up much higher.
The value placed upon a human being in the absence of a God is inferior to the value if there is one.
This is nothing but baseless nonsense, of course.
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The reason being is that the value could change according to our will. If the value is subject to such an elastic will as ours, then there can really be no inherent value at all.
I've never understood why peopole have this drive to assign "value" to human existence. It has what value we give it, as you say. But there is no reason whatsoever to assume that we humans are any more cosmically significant than a mound of ants, or that our existence has any overarching "meaning" or "purpose." That's silly.
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If there is no God, then we are the authors of morality. If we are the authors of morality, then morality is subject to change upon our whim. If morality is subject to change, then there is no absolute morality. If there is no absolute morality, then our judgements of actions are inane. If our judgements of actions are inane, then all things are permitted/justified, morally. I do not believe that morality can be explained sufficiently without a celestial author.
Pfft. More baseless nonsense. Morality, even from a biblical standpoint, has always been subjective and subject to human whims, just as in the Old Testament, Yahweh on several occasions exhorts his followers to slaughter whole villages and enslave and rape women and children. This is simply more evidence that religions are merely the construct of the human imagination. As for a 'god-centered" or "god-based" objective morality (which, of course, doesn't exist) you should take four minutes to view this:
(Admittedly, Hitchens always struck me as seeming like an arrogant a$$hat, ,but that doesn't detract from the very valid points he makes here.)
That survey is crap.Accordingto the 2011 census 22% of australians are atheists.
And yes, the end of something which sees suffering as good is a fantastic thing.
Hmm, the survey certainly certainly seems to be skewed in someone's favour. I think the survey is a bit misleading:
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According to the latest global poll released by WIN-Gallup
International, a world-wide network of leading opinion pollsters,
Ireland rates as one of the least religious countries.
The survey, published by RED C Research & Marketing Ltd are based in er.. Ireland.
OK according to this survey Ireland is one of the least religious countries, but I don't think its giving an accurate picture of the world view by leaving out a number of other countries high in atheism. If other countries had been included, Ireland would be a lot further down the list.
Don't get me wrong, I'm atheist myself but I'm also finickity about details and like to have information presented fairly, without bias if possible.
All the smiley faced emoticons in the survey also lead me to wonder if it wasn't typed up by a student.
If there is no God, then we are the authors of morality. If we are the authors of morality, then morality is subject to change upon our whim. If morality is subject to change, then there is no absolute morality. If there is no absolute morality, then our judgements of actions are inane. If our judgements of actions are inane, then all things are permitted/justified, morally. I do not believe that morality can be explained sufficiently without a celestial author.
All that is required for morality to come into being is a desire for civilization, no celestial authority is needed. Here's my tribe, there is your tribe. Competing for the same food supply brings us into serial conflict which produces great inefficiencies and waste. Therefore we agree to cooperate, we agree that the members of my tribe will no longer attack the members of your tribe. Presto...morality is born and no god of any sort was mandatory to the process.
Of course morality is a human invention rather than something which exists on its own as an absolute. Remove humans from the equation and where is morality? It no longer exists, does it? Or do you find morality in the behavior of insects or the nature of a rock?
And what is your notion of absolute morality? Which set of rules are the absolutes? Can you identify a single moral rule which does not have a human origin?
Far from being a celestial absolute, all morality is contractual, agreements we reach with others regarding acceptable and unacceptable behavior.
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) for the upgrade from 10% to 20% +. That's those who say that they are atheists. The numbers of those who are not sure and so avoid the atheist term or who don't do religion but think there probably is a god are probably much higher. 
