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Old 02-14-2013, 07:52 PM
Location: Boone, NC
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Time is governed by the laws of this universe, who knows how it works elsewhere.

Old 02-14-2013, 09:11 PM
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Eternity is an incomprehensible human construct.
Old 02-15-2013, 03:53 AM
Location: Oklahoma
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I wonder when the first time a homo sapiens got together with another homo sapiens and wondered where we came from and how did we get here?.

I wonder if we had learned to control fire by then or invented tools?.

We've certainly come a long way since that moment but the question still remains. Where did we come from and how did we get here?

The maddening thing is that if we ever were able to PROVE that there was a god................

The question turns into........Where did he come from and how did he get here?
Old 02-15-2013, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Type O Negative View Post
My view.

I have no religious beliefs what so ever.
Nothing is eternal and the universe did not begin with the big bang, that event was simply an event in a larger cycle.

Just as the universe as we know it today is still expanding, it will get to the point where it contracts again in to a infinitesimally small point and the explodes again.

It is just an organism on a gigantic scale that we can not comprehend.

See it as a heart beating. expands, contracts, expands...
My $0.02
Thanks, Type O Negative. I've heard of the multiple Big Bangs theory (or idea) but even that I would think have a limited amount of energy to facilitate the "banging". (Sort of like a ball bouncing, eh?)
Old 02-15-2013, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I haven't posted anything on this forum for ages but I'll give it a try. Yes, I agree that the universe we live in certainly had a beginning in which even space and time began which is approximately 14 billion years ago. Due to Einstein's discoveries regarding the nature of time itself I tend to believe that there is no such thing as "eternal" because time is not what we thought it was before the theory of relativity. The problem we face in addressing such questions as what started the universe in the first place is that it's nothing but speculation and we simply don't have any verifiable evidence whatsoever so the answer is that we just don't know. I've never found the concept of a conscious entity we call God to be a viable explanation for either our existence or the existence of the universe, it just appears as a manmade idea to explain the unexplainable.
This is the reason that I call myself an atheist, it's the fact that I reject the idea of a planned purpose put in place by an intelligence so great that we can't comprehend it and that this entity has put human beings into a central role in playing out a conflict between good and evil. That seems to be putting ourselves up on a pedestal above all other living things which comes across to me as rather self centered and somewhat egotistical. Besides our large brains and certain mental abilities I doubt very much that we're going to outlast such perfectly adapted creatures like cockroaches, ants, and countless other species because our existence is much more precarious due to our self destructive nature and our inability to live in harmony with nature.
As far as something else that may have caused the emergence of live and our universe I certainly do think that's a possibility since we don't know what caused the big bang or how the universe will end or whether it exists in some kind of cycle that repeats itself but if something like that does exist I believe it's just a natural phenomenon that we haven't been able to discover and that it has no purpose or conscious direction, it just is.
Interesting thoughts, MontanaGuy, and thanks for your input. It's been a long time since we've talked on these forums!

I agree with you that space and time began with the start of the universe. It's just intrigued me to attempt to think of what "nothing" was like before there was "something"(the seed or creation of our universe). It just got my mind turning over what I believe would have to be a necessity for something other than what we have now (time, space, matter), to have existed. Whatever that something is, it must exist be completely different than anything we can even comprehend because the "things" we know all consist of or in the constraints of time, space, and matter.

You may be right about our inability to outlast so-called "lessor" creatures, but I hope you're wrong!

Thanks again, my friend!
Old 02-15-2013, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Alpha8207;28245433]Hey all.

First, for those of you who don't know me. I am a Christian and certainly believe in the God of the Christian Bible.
Do you doubt yourself, and have to self-re-enforce it?
I was merely sharing what I believe to establish my bias in these discussions. That said, sure I doubt myself a lot. But if I were looking to self-re-enforce (sic) it, I wouldn't need the others here, would I?

In the class, we were discussing the Cosmological Argument for God and were looking at the scientific community's belief in a non-eternal universe (it had a beginning).

First, would you agree that the universe had a beginning?
Which universe? Nothing is wrong with beginning of this particular universe. Physical things have beginning and end.
I didn't imply anything was wrong "with beginning of this particular universe". I realize physical things "have beginning and end", I'm asking about your beliefs in the world beyond what we see as the physical world.

Second, if time, space, and matter (the natural world) were all "started" with the Big Bang and the creation of the Universe, does it seem logical to you that something supernatural (not necessarily God, but something outside of the natural world) has existed eternally? Or at least potentially eternally?
Never forget, that Big Bang is nothing more than a theory, with multiple scientists that doubt it or find major holes in it. This is an assumption, maintained by mainstream science, for reasons whatever. Next, there is no time. Time is human mind concept. Simple logic tells you, that for universe to come out of what it came out of, that something had to exist and come out of something else, and so on. Ad absurdum. Hence, there should be something, that exists beyond what you discussing, contains all of it in itself, and is eternal, unlike the physical universes. Logical? Ask Thomas Aquinas.

I don't know that I've expressed myself well in that last question but perhaps the forthcoming discussion will bring other thoughts to the surface.

I guess what I am trying to understand from the atheistic viewpoint/opinion, is if there is something "out there" that exists eternally and is beyond the natural, then how could someone honestly call themselves atheist instead of agnostic. Admittedly this is using my logic and opinions which are necessarily biased, hence my approaching you guys with my question.
Yes. I agree with you. Logic, like I said, clearly shows, that for this universe to appear, it has to come out of something. If it came out of nothing, that act defies basic fundamental laws of physics, and is qualified as a miracle. If it came out of something, then that something should pre-exist current universe, and, like I said, this chain can go on and on and on, until it is absurd to discuss. Hence, logically, either God created universe out of nothing by a miracle, or, universes, appearing and disappearing (read about Kali Yuga), have to be in something, that is, for all practical characteristics of it, eternal. That is called the Realm of Permanence, with eternal substance being a source to all those universes, manifesting themselves into the physical ones you observe. Science is, basically, evading this topic, as it becomes progressively illogical and damaging to many scientific degrees to keep digging into it.
Now, let me pick your mind. Besides physical universe, what else do you observe? You observe intelligence, right? Can't deny that. Now, LOGICALLY, if this universe has intelligence, and we had eternity of them, then all or many of them should have intelligence present, right? Here's the thing. THAT intelligence is as eternal and present in EVERYTHING as much as substance is eternal and present in matter. And THAT Intelligence is what you cal God. Not the Guy on the throne angrily staring at you.
Mis-characterization of my view of God aside, you really sum up the idea I have been mulling over. I agree science seems to evade the topic but I disagree on your reasons why. I also think we simply don't know the science and mathmatics needed to truly delve into the origins of the universe....I seriously doubt we ever will but we'll see. It will take faith in assumptions from all points of view make us "warm and cozy" in our beliefs.

As far as your last point, I find it hard to believe that something having intelligence but no matter could be anything but the God you criticized me earlier of doubting. In other words, I believe that the God I believe in is Spirit but that His Spirit does have intelligence.

Thanks urkkoz!
Old 02-15-2013, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Just because a Big Bang happened 14B years ago does not imply that there was a superman there to light the fuse.
True, mensaguy, but it does imply there was a super-something there to "light the fuse".
Old 02-15-2013, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Our universe may have had a beginning. But this does not mean it's impossible for there to have been other universes.

My belief is that something has probably always existed and is eternal. Therefore, there is no need for a supernatural God to have caused our universe to exist.
I think we kind of agree with each other (save for your last sentence where we obviously part ways). I've just been wanting to explore what you might think that "something" is and what would its attributes be. Does that make sense? Obviously we're speculating on the unknown....but in reality it's a sort of "known unknown" in that we don't know exactly what "it" is but that, in all likelihood, "it" is. (That's so hard to type out to get the inflection needed.)
Old 02-15-2013, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Data1000 View Post
The word universe needs to be defined. A century ago, our galaxy was thought to be the universe. After other galaxies were discovered, the universe was thought of as an area that includes everything. After the Big Bang became widely accepted, it was realized that the universe is not a static place and instead came from a single point. This opened the door to other universes that didn't originate from our single point.

Is there a very "beginning" of everything? That question may be an invalid question as we do not really understand yet how time behaves. In a few hundred years, maybe there will be an answer, maybe not. In my opinion, the only honest answer to your question is "I don't know".
Fair enough, Data1000, thanks for your response.
Old 02-15-2013, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by KatieGal View Post
I'm not convinced that the universe had a beginning. It seems logical that it did, but I'm not totally convinced of it. I think the Big Bang probably was just one phase in the existence of the universe, but I'm no cosmologist.

I have always said that I believe it is possible that there is some "superior entity" of some kind that created the universe. I think it is unlikely, but possible. I have rated the chances at 10%. That is purely a guess based on my gut feeling.

From the atheist point of view, at least from my atheist point of view, those things I have just mentioned are pretty much irrelevant to the concept of a god. I think the argument against the Big Bang, as well as evolution almost entirely comes from the same place; a need for not just a god, but a prayer-hearing, miracle-giving god.

Nevertheless, when it comes to either the Big Bang theory, or evolution, both could be disproven and as far as I can tell, it is still a daunting task to envision that Christian god. Gone would be a few minor details that work to refute the existence of a god. What is needed is evidence to support the existence of a god. And for all practical purposes there is none.
I bolded the last part of your post, KatieGal because I think it's very interesting. I disagree, of course, and certainly the Cosmological argument for God is only one of several that I believe stacks the evidence (or at least the probability) for God, in the other direction.

To the topic of this thread, I thought that modern science was widely in agreement that the universe had a beginning. I know there are some competing theories and ideas, but as far as I know most ideas and beliefs on the eternality (is that a word ) of the universe have not gotten much traction in the scientific community.
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