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Old 02-27-2013, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,842 posts, read 19,937,680 times
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It's really quite necessary and practical to prohibit suicide since , what with the idea that 'heaven' is so wonderful, 'everyone' would be doing it.
Religions had to institute something to counteract the desire for all that promised bliss

Then again, it may have been a purely practical thing like the pork prohibition, just to prevent it for those for whom the decision would have been rash and temporary.....allowing time for re-consideration.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Athens, Greece
526 posts, read 580,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I'd say the bottom line is -as one might expect - if one kills others or oneself in accordance with a god's will, that is good and praiseworthy. If one does it for personal reasons, it may do, if it coincides with God's approval,but if done more or lest against the god's wishes, it is wrong.

When one understands that Right and wrong in terms of religious ethics means 'Whatever the God says' the question under discussion becomes clear.
Oh!.. What do we have here? Religion prohibiting suicide and agnostics accusing religion for justifying suicide!!

God may have said “do that” but there are cases when the clergy said “do not do what the God said, because God has changed his mind”.

So much the ancient Greek tragic poets as the redactors of the Hebrew texts informed the people that the gods did not demand human sacrifice any longer and that they were satisfied with the sacrifice of animals.

Judaism (why do you call it Abrahamic religion?) prohibits the killing of children, but it is obvious that when it comes to religion you are against 100%. It is God himself you do not dare to oppose all the way!

As to suicide,… you like definitions. Why don’t you look up “suicide,” “euthanasia” and “self-sacrifice.”
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Athens, Greece
526 posts, read 580,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Not confused at all no. Suicide for the purposes of sacrifice would be exactly what I am talking about. Switching the label does not change what I am saying about it. Killing yourself is killing yourself whatever label you use.
In this case the label has been voiced by religion. You may regard as suicide the killing of one’s self at war (and I quite agree with you in this) but religion encourages one to go and kill himself at War, defending belief and Country. So, it is pure suicide, committed by someone who is not in the condition to fully understand what he is doing, that we are talking about. That is the kind of suicide religion is prohibiting.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:58 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
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^ It might be what YOU are talking about but that does not mean it is what I am. I see no reason to think that all cases where someone kills themselves are done while "not fully understandings what they are doing".
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Not.here
2,828 posts, read 3,610,995 times
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Why do you think many religions consider suicide as a terrible sin?

It goes against the basic doctrine about "saving lives." Also, it would not be good for business.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
2,540 posts, read 3,277,305 times
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For the Catholic church believers, suicide is a mortal sin. Its a part of the whole "guilt " thing, that they push on the flock.

I spent a number of years working in Toronto as an Ambulance officer, and dealing with suicidal people was a regular part of my job. In may cases, they really didn't WANT to die, they were just playing at it.

Being the practical person that I am...........I would offer to kill THEM, my self, right there, and guess what......no body ever took me up on my sincere offer. What a surprise !!

The really dedicated potential suicide is not going to be stopped, as they will simply find another time and place, to take themselves out. Suicide is the ultimate "selfish move ' as the ones who are still alive have to deal with their guilt and the dead guy doesn't. The person who takes other innocent vcitims with them, has my complete and utter loathing, and contempt.

Jim B

Toronto.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,138 posts, read 18,604,845 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian citizen View Post
Suicide is the ultimate "selfish move ' as the ones who are still alive have to deal with their guilt and the dead guy doesn't. The person who takes other innocent vcitims with them, has my complete and utter loathing, and contempt.

Jim B

Toronto.
Why is killing oneself the ultimate selfish thing to do? How is that any more selfish than someone demanding that a friend or family member stay alive for the benefit of that friend or family member's felicitous state of mind? It is "me first" in either case, isn't it?

You are postulating an obligation to remain alive as long as possible, regardless of how miserable someone might be while doing so. The person who wants out of the misery is selfish, the person who insists that the person remain and continue to suffer is not?
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:41 AM
 
39,213 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtango View Post
Oh!.. What do we have here? Religion prohibiting suicide and agnostics accusing religion for justifying suicide!!

God may have said “do that” but there are cases when the clergy said “do not do what the God said, because God has changed his mind”.

So much the ancient Greek tragic poets as the redactors of the Hebrew texts informed the people that the gods did not demand human sacrifice any longer and that they were satisfied with the sacrifice of animals.

Judaism (why do you call it Abrahamic religion?) prohibits the killing of children, but it is obvious that when it comes to religion you are against 100%. It is God himself you do not dare to oppose all the way!

As to suicide,… you like definitions. Why don’t you look up “suicide,” “euthanasia” and “self-sacrifice.”
I don't see a point in replying to this mix of agreeing with what I say as though you were disagreeing with it. As to definitions, if you have an argument to make, make it. It is a very Theiopologist ploy to ask the other side to do the research.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:44 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian citizen View Post
Suicide is the ultimate "selfish move ' as the ones who are still alive have to deal with their guilt and the dead guy doesn't.
Another baseless generalization which we can list with the ones I have addressed already in the post.

Firstly the people who demand that someone continue living despite their wishes are being just as "selfish" which chops your point off at the knees.

Secondly however many people are making their choice despite wanting to live... but because they think their death with be for a greater good of others in some way. That is the opposite of a "selfish move".

It seems from this thread so far that people are far too quick to take the entire world of suicide and try to stuff it into a single explanatory label or box to explain it all away with a quick sound byte. It simply does not work that way and the motivations for (if any) and statements made by (if any) suicide are as diverse as the people engaging in it.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,097,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian citizen View Post
Suicide is the ultimate "selfish move" as the ones who are still alive have to deal with their guilt and the dead guy doesn't.
Why would they have guilt to deal with? It's not their decision and therefore not their responsibility. If the person offing themselves was despondent (irrational or not entirely rational suicide decision) then I suppose there might be room for some guilt on the part of those who legitimately failed to step up to the plate in some way in their actual role as a friend or relative -- but to the extent that would be legitimate guilt, it would need to be dealt with like any other failed personal responsibility. It's nice if the person ending their life leaves behind messages releasing one and all from any kind of culpability, just to guard against people's angst, but most of that is needless angst and socially conditioned and doesn't represent actual failure on anyone's part. In other words it's an artifact of the social taboo about suicide and death and ends up being used as an excuse to perpetuate the taboo.

If everyone were encouraged to think about, talk about, and generally deal with the topic, it would not make everyone unhinged to encounter death in its various forms. Heck, people prone to guilt and angst would be nearly as guilty and angst-ridden over a natural death, as over a suicide, anyway.

The only situation where I might agree with you to a degree is the particularly complex and nuanced relationship of parent to child. Children take on all sorts of responsibility and guilt that they shouldn't, even as adults, and except in cases of extreme suffering where there's a rational suicide in which the whole family is involved in the decision, suicide of a person with minor children is seldom an option that's really open to them. Even with adult children, I'd think twice. For example I have a son in his late 20's who is borderline Asperger's, and I would not want to unwittingly give him "permission" to lightly take the choice of suicide for himself, given that he's prone off and on to depression. So if I found myself contemplating suicide I would think very, very carefully about it to be sure. Then again, if I were expected to die anyway in 6 months from some baroque, painful malady, it's down to a question of timing, practically speaking, and a graceful, planned exit might be a lot less stressful for all concerned. There is no one answer for all situations.
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