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Old 05-11-2013, 01:40 PM
 
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Oh for atheism's sake . . . it is a rite of remembrance and celebration, period! "Do this in REMEMBRANCE of me." It is no different than a birthday cake and milk to remember someone's birthday!!! Whatever mumbo jumbo the Church claims to attach to it is just that . . . mumbo jumbo.
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Old 05-11-2013, 01:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Oh for atheism's sake . . . it is a rite of remembrance and celebration, period! "Do this in REMEMBRANCE of me." It is no different than a birthday cake and milk to remember someone's birthday!!! Whatever mumbo jumbo the Church claims to attach to it is just that . . . mumbo jumbo.
Well, with all due respect, he didn't ask the apostles to eat birthday cake and drink milk in remembrance of him, he asked people to symbolically eat his body and drink his blood in remembrance of him. The difference, even in symbolism, is obviously dramatic.

He didn't say, "Eat this and remember that we were all together at this time." He said, "Eat this...this IS my body."

Now if I made a twisted bread and covered it with marinara sauce each year to symbolize my son's umbilical cord for his birthday, for example, and we all sat around and ritualistically tore off small pieces and ate them while thinking directly about my son's umbilical cord, I think you'll agree that eating that would have a very different meaning/significance than eating some cake.

When I eat my son's birthday cake I'm not imagining it as a part of his body. I'm imagining it the same way I'm seeing it pragmatically: as cake.

Catholics are asked to view the bread and wine as Jesus' body and blood specifically. They aren't asked to just have a bite of food together as a remembrance. They are asked specifically to visualize that they are eating/drinking Jesus' body and blood. "This IS my body." "This IS my blood."

No, I don't think most Catholics today believe the wafer and wine literally become Jesus' body and blood (though the tradition of transubstantiation tells us that they were to literally view it this way in the church's earlier times). I think we all know we're not talking about literally tearing into a corpse here. The question was whether faux cannibalism is as creepy as real cannibalism. It has been a given since the beginning of this thread that the OP doesn't believe these foods are literally the body of a dead person.

And I'll repeat for myself: yes. I do find it creepy, whether literal or figurative, in the same way I'd find it creepy to consume twisted bread to imitate my son's umbilical cord to celebrate his birthday each year, as I gave above as an example. Is it creepy to *symbolically* eat a person? My answer is yes, other people's answers will vary.
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Old 05-11-2013, 01:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Eresh View Post
Are you saying that when Catholics go up to the priest at the end of mass and he gives them that little wafer thing, that the people actually think it is really some piece of human meat that they chopped up in the back room somewhere? I know a lot of Catholics but not a one thinks it's actual meat. Do they believe the symbolism? of course. I don't think believing the symbolism makes one a true cannibal - just an average sheeple.
That's the dogma, that it actually, truly, has been magically transformed into the flesh of a person who died 2000 years ago.
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Old 05-11-2013, 02:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Wild Colonial Girl View Post
That's the dogma, that it actually, truly, has been magically transformed into the flesh of a person who died 2000 years ago.
Well, now that's been softened up a little to accommodate people's very logical (IMO) repulsion at the thought of literally eating another person, and people's better knowledge of the world (which for many people eliminates magic as a real-world possibility, and that's what transubstantiation is, magic).

It seems apologies/apologetics fly and rules get changed frequently in Christianity. They have done so since Jesus supposedly eliminated the "need for" "some" (unspecified and ever-changing) parts of the OT, for example.

The tradition carries forward. Where questions come up, that's where dogma appears. When dogma no longer flies, it's softened to "tradition" or "symbolism." And so on.
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Old 05-11-2013, 02:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eresh View Post
Are you saying that when Catholics go up to the priest at the end of mass and he gives them that little wafer thing, that the people actually think it is really some piece of human meat that they chopped up in the back room somewhere? I know a lot of Catholics but not a one thinks it's actual meat. Do they believe the symbolism? of course. I don't think believing the symbolism makes one a true cannibal - just an average sheeple.
Also, to be fair, it's not like the literal belief in transubstantiation went out during the Middle Ages or something. When I was a teenager I asked my friend about it (she took me to church twice) and she said we were supposed to literally know/feel that the wafer had turned into Jesus' body and the wine into his blood, and in fact was shocked that I would think otherwise. She seemed to feel it was sacrilege to think otherwise. And this was only about 30 years ago.

So it's not so weird that there were people fairly recently in history that literally believed in transubstantiation nor to think there may still be people who think so. It's certainly a possibility. I don't know because I haven't asked any Catholics that question in more recent years.
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Old 05-11-2013, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Also, to be fair, it's not like the literal belief in transubstantiation went out during the Middle Ages or something. When I was a teenager I asked my friend about it (she took me to church twice) and she said we were supposed to literally know/feel that the wafer had turned into Jesus' body and the wine into his blood, and in fact was shocked that I would think otherwise. She seemed to feel it was sacrilege to think otherwise. And this was only about 30 years ago.

So it's not so weird that there were people fairly recently in history that literally believed in transubstantiation nor to think there may still be people who think so. It's certainly a possibility. I don't know because I haven't asked any Catholics that question in more recent years.
I can tell you that there are many modern day Catholics who believe in literal transubstantiation. If you don't know any, that's probably because they're just the wishy washy Christmas and Easter moderate Catholics that are so common, but dogmatic, true Catholics that really believe in this stuff are still with us by the millions.

I think most Protestants view it as a symbolic thing though, which is why it's so easily criticized in an American context where Protestant thinking dominates, even among many nominal Catholics.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Oh for atheism's sake . . . it is a rite of remembrance and celebration, period! "Do this in REMEMBRANCE of me." It is no different than a birthday cake and milk to remember someone's birthday!!! Whatever mumbo jumbo the Church claims to attach to it is just that . . . mumbo jumbo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Well, with all due respect, he didn't ask the apostles to eat birthday cake and drink milk in remembrance of him, he asked people to symbolically eat his body and drink his blood in remembrance of him. The difference, even in symbolism, is obviously dramatic.
To be specific He asked them to eat BREAD and drink WINE. The rest is the Church's mumbo jumbo I referred to . . . and your insistence that it be something other than that is an attempt to sensationalize their mumbo jumbo as creepy. A lot of what emanated from our ignorant savage ancestors is creepy and ridiculous . . . like sacrificing poor innocent lambs to appease a vengeful God and the like . . . or worse yet sacrificing their live babies to Molech. If we have not evolved and become learned enough to recognize savage barbarity for what it was . . . ignorance . . . we have wasted 2000+ years of human experience. Evaluating their ways of expressing themselves symbolically using our mindset is unfair. Jesus knew He was facing actual scourging of His BODY and His BLOOD would be spilled in physical death . . . to ask that His body and blood be remembered symbolically using bread and wine was NOT asking them to believe it was His Body and blood . . . and not that outrageous or creepy a request AT THAT TIME. Lighten up

Last edited by MysticPhD; 05-11-2013 at 09:24 PM..
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
To be specific He asked them to eat BREAD and drink WINE.
Yes, he did, immediately followed by, "This IS my body. This IS my blood." He knew it was not literally his body and blood but he was asking them to think of it as swallowing his body and blood. The OP has stated that she is talking about non-literal cannibalism, she even says so in the subject line.

She asked what people think of this. I answered what I think of it: that yes, it is creepy to me to think about swallowing a person's body and blood in a non-literal way, just as it is creepy to me to think of literal cannibalism. I gave the "umbilical cord" bread analogy because we would KNOW it was not literally an umbilical cord, but yes, I would still find it quite creepy.

Yes, transubstantiation is dogma. I was not referring (in my original thoughts) to whether it was gross to literally eat people, nor to literally think one was eating a person. However, transubstantiation was brought up and I answered that, too.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:22 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
To be specific He asked them to eat BREAD and drink WINE. The rest is the Church's mumbo jumbo I referred to . . . and your insistence that it be something other than that is an attempt to sensationalize their mumbo jumbo as creepy. A lot of what emanated from our ignorant savage ancestors is creepy and ridiculous . . . like sacrificing poor innocent lambs to appease a vengeful God and the like . . . or worse yet sacrificing their live babies to Molech. If we have not evolved and become learned enough to recognize savage barbarity for what it was . . . ignorance . . . we have wasted 2000+ years of human experience. Evaluating their ways of expressing themselves symbolically using our mindset is unfair. Jesus knew He was facing actual scourging of His BODY and His BLOOD would be spilled in physical death . . . to ask that His body and blood be remembered symbolically using bread and wine was NOT asking them to believe it was His Body and blood . . . and not that outrageous or creepy a request AT THAT TIME. Lighten up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Yes, he did, immediately followed by, "This IS my body. This IS my blood." He knew it was not literally his body and blood but he was asking them to think of it as swallowing his body and blood.
I repeat:
Evaluating their ways of expressing themselves symbolically using our mindset is unfair. Jesus knew He was facing actual scourging of His BODY and that His BLOOD would be spilled in physical death. For Him to ask that His body and blood be remembered symbolically using bread and wine . . . was NOT asking them to believe it was His Body and blood . . . and not that outrageous or creepy a request AT THAT TIME. Lighten up
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
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Two cannibals are at a family picnic. One cannibal turns to the other and says

"Y'know, I really can't stand my mother in law.



The other cannibal says 'So just eat the noodles.'
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