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Old 05-16-2013, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,379,377 times
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"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli"

... wherein it clearly states, in plain English, this information about the spiritual basis of the Government of America as a NON-Christian Based Country. Uhmmm... so sorry boys;;


Read it and weep!

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Muslims,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Let's pull out that line again for the disbelievers, shall we?

Here:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,..."

Oh drat, huh?
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:29 PM
 
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The Christian argument is that this was just politics. It was a reassurance to some muslims. The writer knew that it wasn't true and it eas a justified lie - he knew very well that the US was indeed founded on the Christian religion.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,379,377 times
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Default To some degree, yes....

I'd agree that the underpinnings of this country were initially and justifiably based on Christian principles, but nowadays the intent and insistance seems to be that we should have visible Christianity in every public school, in buses and on billboards, including those mandated morning prayers just to git'r done ASAP.

(Incidentally, my 4th or 5th grade teacher [now we're going back a wee bit...] was, even as I now rather easily remember, a very vocal atheist, did a carefully rehearsed ultra-rapid spewing of The Lord's Prayer each morning, even when the principle, who had, it seems, received some fervent complaints to his office from a concerned Christian parent, had arrived and stood at the back of the room. He actually chortled quietly and then left, winking at my teacher.

Up in the very modern socialist and much more atheist Canada, they seem to have worked it out to let the theist propaganda go with very little fanfare or spiritual in-fighting. That does not seem to be the intent down here in America, though, don't you agree, AEREQUIPA? Conversion seems to be on the agenda.

Btw, how is it in Britain? Any religious mandates to deal with? I think I know have heard that the Islamic movement is going stridently along, non? I also seem to recall that Britain is even more outright atheistic than Canada and/or Europe.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,867 posts, read 3,793,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
I'd agree that the underpinnings of this country were initially and justifiably based on Christian principles, but nowadays the intent and insistance seems to be that we should have visible Christianity in every public school, in buses and on billboards, including those mandated morning prayers just to git'r done ASAP.

(Incidentally, my 4th or 5th grade teacher [now we're going back a wee bit...] was, even as I now rather easily remember, a very vocal atheist, did a carefully rehearsed ultra-rapid spewing of The Lord's Prayer each morning, even when the principle, who had, it seems, received some fervent complaints to his office from a concerned Christian parent, had arrived and stood at the back of the room. He actually chortled quietly and then left, winking at my teacher.

Up in the very modern socialist and much more atheist Canada, they seem to have worked it out to let the theist propaganda go with very little fanfare or spiritual in-fighting. That does not seem to be the intent down here in America, though, don't you agree, AEREQUIPA? Conversion seems to be on the agenda.

Btw, how is it in Britain? Any religious mandates to deal with? I think I know have heard that the Islamic movement is going stridently along, non? I also seem to recall that Britain is even more outright atheistic than Canada and/or Europe.

If I could add my two cents here being a fellow Brit. Arequipa of course feel free to disagree if you feel I'm talking tripe. Probably going to make myself exceptionally unpopular here, but there you go I'm just being honest:

Britain of course is traditionally a Christian country too. America may claim not to be, but we all know of course how ridiculous that is as a statement. Christianity is deeply embedded here.

The British Monarchy holds two roles, both of which are largely ceremonial / symbolic: The Queen is the British Head of State, however contrary to many Americans belief, she does not 'rule' the country - we have an elected Government to do that. She also happens to be head of The Church of England. The Queens role is far more about tradition than anything else. But it does mean that England is deemed to be a christian nation, at least in name. The majority of British citizens went to what could loosely be described as a church school. We had to say the Lords Prayer every day but that was about it. If you were not from a Christian family, you went to the same school but were allowed to sit out of assembly while the Lords prayer etc was said. We had an hour a week compulsory RE (religious education) in which we learned about all religions, not just Christianity.
The upshot of all this is people generally don't go to church, because they don't feel the need. They are taught morality and religious tolerance at school!
What this means is that kids leave school, leaving religion behind altogether.

How Religious is Britain? Not Very, Says Richard Dawkins
According to the British Humanist Association, Christians will be in the minority in Britain by 2018.

Here's the paradox: We have 'Christian' Britain that teaches religion and produces a nation of atheists, and 'nondenominational' America that refuses to admit religion into schools but produces a nation of religious zealots.

I have had enough experience living here in the USA to form my own viewpoint on why Americans cannot let go of Christianity and much of it has to do with education. Religious education (that's all religion mind you) should be embraced in schools so that kids can make up their own minds about it, not just have one narrow minded viewpoint forced upon them in church. Education is ALWAYS the answer. It also has to do with the founding of America which for some reason Americans cannot seem to let go of. This is 2013 not 1776. Time to move into the 21st Century guys. Everyone else moved on long ago. (Sorry )

Last edited by Cruithne; 05-17-2013 at 02:41 PM..
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:42 PM
 
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Cruithne has dealt pretty well, here. Christianity Is the state here in a way that it isn't in America and yet it is ok to be atheist in a way that it isn't in America.

The bad rap atheist and atheism has is the same though and more needs to be done to make it known that it is not only a reasonable position on religion but the most reasonable position.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I have had enough experience living here in the USA to form my own viewpoint on why Americans cannot let go of Christianity and much of it has to do with education. Religious education (that's all religion mind you) should be embraced in schools so that kids can make up their own minds about it, not just have one narrow minded viewpoint forced upon them in church. Education is ALWAYS the answer.
I happen to agree with you. My wife purposely exposed her kids to religious day care, bought them children's Bibles, etc., and now as young adults one is an atheist and the other a liberal Christian socially but an agnostic nonetheless. I don't think atheists who are obsessed with keeping theists away from their children need have any concerns.

Then again, I was still a believer when raising my children and went so far as to home school them from a religious curriculum and they are both atheists now as adults. So I also don't think fundamentalists who are obsessed with keeping liberals and unbelievers away from their children should bother to waste all the angst either.

The problem here in the colonies is we're all obsessed with avoiding / dehumanizing / demonizing The Other. We are moving toward diversity in many respects but we all still think we're right, too.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:24 AM
 
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I fully agree. Atheism should have a huge amount of tolerance fo people to believe all sorts of things and do it on an organized basis, too.

At the same time, no one of them should be able to dominate, rule and enact law. If they can attract followers, fine. To use the educational curriculum to try to conscript believers would be right out.

The claims they make would be open to evaluation just as any other conspiracy theory or urban myth. After all it might turn out to be confirmed.

But none of the claims should be taught as true simply because they believe it.

Comparitive religion could be taught in the history class maybe three classes. ancient religion, eastern religion, Abrahamic religion. Students could even major in the subject. That would be the extent of religion in schools. What they do outside is their own affair - within the law. Forbidding your wife to drive, work or learn to read - not to mention withdrawing her candidacy in a presidential election would rightly be regarded as a serious crime against humanity.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,113 posts, read 18,599,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The Christian argument is that this was just politics. It was a reassurance to some muslims. The writer knew that it wasn't true and it eas a justified lie - he knew very well that the US was indeed founded on the Christian religion.
Is that your argument as well?

The reasoning involved is akin to coming upon a stop sign and concluding that the people who put it there didn't really mean it, it was just there to make people think that traffic was being regulated. No need to stop.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:41 AM
 
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Well...I'm inclined to give the benefit of doubt and suppose the writer of the letter meant what he said (1). after all, a lie could backfire. So, no I don't really buy the Christian explaining away of the 'No way founded on Christianity' letter and just put that down to trying somehow to rewrite the constitution to allow them a legal whip hand of their religious views over everyone in the country.

(1) John Adams in the English language version. The Arabic article 11 is said to be 'trivial' and I suppose bears no resemblance to art. 11 in the English version. That it is in the English version would seem to settle the matter.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:49 AM
 
609 posts, read 467,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The Christian argument is that this was just politics. It was a reassurance to some muslims. The writer knew that it wasn't true and it eas a justified lie - he knew very well that the US was indeed founded on the Christian religion.

Well, assuming the the writer had ever actually read the constitution, he would know with certainty that it was indeed true that the US was not a Christian nation.
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