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Old 06-07-2013, 04:34 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,313,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
Would anyone (theist or atheist) here worship anything that was proven to be material in nature?
I fail to see any reason why I might.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:38 AM
 
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I suppose the reply to that has to be, would I or any other atheist worship even a real God if it rolled up in a way nobody could reasonably dispute?

"Greetings. I am Thor."

"Now you are one I really thought didn't exist."

"It's always the one you least expect. Worship me."

"Could you do something about the Tornadoes in America?"

"What is written is written."

"So no point in praying then. What exactly would you want me to do?"

"Well, get on your knees...or prone would be good...grovel a bit...close you eyes as though the sight of my glory blinded you...and say 'Oh Thor, you are so huge and wonderful, I love you.' Keep that going for an hour or so."

"Or what?"

"Well - or I'll smash you with my hammer. It's a very big one."

"I'll bet. No sorry. I concede you exist and you can dish out a lot of no - good if you want, but there's no point in worshipping you. Why, you can't even DO anything for us as it is already written. You can't even blame me for not worshipping you as that was already written, too. And you can't smash me either, unless that was written. Just what point is there in you...with respect?"

*sigh" "I may as well have stayed in Asgard. At least the beer was good.."
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,627 posts, read 18,722,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Not even remotely similar to what I am saying. A complete disingenuous misrepresentation in fact.
As noted, I employed your approach.

Last edited by Grandstander; 06-07-2013 at 07:32 AM..
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
As noted, I employed your approach.
My approach is not replying to something you never said. I replied to what you did say. So no, you did not employ my approach. You straw manned it and quite disingenuously too.

Again: If I ask you what X is and instead you tell me what X does... you have not answered my question.

By saying "god is the answer to X" you still have not actually said what god _is_ which is what the OP actually asked.

Just like if I ask you what flour is and you tell me flour is used in bread... you have not answered the question of what flour actually _is_. The answer you gave is not an answer to the question that was actually asked.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,627 posts, read 18,722,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
The answer you gave is not an answer to the question that was actually asked.
I do not agree and I am satisfied with my answer.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:55 AM
 
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And I am satisfied with my evaluation of the answer you gave as being a non-answer to the question actually asked. So we are all happy. Yay.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:09 AM
 
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god is a word used to describe the indescribable- our minds cannot put a label on what it is... no words or explanation can answer what it is in totality.
our minds are limited.. "God" is unlimited.

people have given "him" a gender.. a race , and all kinds of labels ..but "god" is nothing that we can limit or put in a box.. neither is "god " something we can explain with out limited understanding.. God is all and everything and more
he is you, me and everyone and everything else.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:13 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,313,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingwithin View Post
god is a word used to describe the indescribable- our minds cannot put a label on what it is... no words or explanation can answer what it is in totality.
our minds are limited.. "God" is unlimited.

people have given "him" a gender.. a race , and all kinds of labels ..but "god" is nothing that we can limit or put in a box.. neither is "god " something we can explain with out limited understanding.. God is all and everything and more
he is you, me and everyone and everything else.
You appear to have used a lot of words to say literally nothing at all. As mentioned earlier in the thread you seem to be one of that aforementioned group of people who just define "god" as meaning all of everything. This really says nothing. We have already got perfectly workable words for things like that, such as "universe".

Why redefine an already existing word like "god" to mean the same thing, especially given all the metaphysical baggage and unsubstantiated nonsense that is already tied up with the word "god"?
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,931 posts, read 3,829,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
Very intuitive. The heart of the real question is this, and probably the way I should have worded it to begin with.

What is a god... composed of? This is a question I've never had a good answer to.
I see what you are getting at.
Unfortunately I don't think you are going to get an answer from an atheist since we don't believe god(s) exist. You'd probably have to pose your question on the general religion forum and ask someone who believes god(s) exist. But even then you are not going to get any satisfactory answer because you will probably get something like 'god is everywhere and in everything'. I don't think he's supposed to be composed of anything - and everything all at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
At this point, it does require faith to believe in a god. I'm not necessarily sure however if being a god requires sentient beings have faith in you. Interesting thought though.
Yes. Its logical to suppose that if it turns out there really is a god, it is immaterial whether people believe he exists or not.

This kind of scenario always puts me in mind of the Douglas Adams quote:
Quote:
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
The problem is that unless god decides to show himself at some point (unlikely), his 'existence' relies on faith. Once people stop believing, he ceases to exist, at least in the minds of humanity. That's not to say he couldn't still exist, just that nobody would be aware of it.

Its a bit like the old idiom "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Last edited by Cruithne; 06-07-2013 at 10:41 AM..
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,198 posts, read 9,150,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
The problem is that unless god decides to show himself at some point (unlikely), his 'existence' relies on faith. Once people stop believing, he ceases to exist, at least in the minds of humanity. That's not to say he couldn't still exist, just that nobody would be aware of it.

Its a bit like the old idiom "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
This is the basic premise behind Neil Gaiman's novel, American Gods. All the old, formerly powerful gods are still hanging around, but because virtually no one believes in them, they are mere shadows of their former selves -- they are street people, vacuum cleaner salesmen, and the like. Among them is Odin, who wishes to lead a war against the modern, up-and-coming gods and try to re-establish himself.

It's a fun read ... recommended. Although of course anything by Gaiman is pretty good.
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