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Always 'sort of' been an atheist though more accurately really agnostic until recently.
Growing up, church was deeply puzzling and mystifying to me. Some of the bible stories were nice but mostly it felt like attending a club where everyone else understood what was going on and I didn't:
Even now I have no idea what the holy ghost is supposed to be or is supposed to represent.
In the Church of England it is not necessary to be confirmed to take communion. I never understood communion so would have felt deeply hypocritical for taking it, so never took it. I always felt slightly embarrassed sitting in my pew while everyone filed passed me to go up to take communion.
Never understood any of the metaphorical side of belief - you know all of that 'Jesus will take you by the hand', 'Walk with Jesus', 'God will lead you' type of thing. I used to take it all literally and wonder where these people were? Where is this person that is supposed to be taking my hand? Anyway, I thought he was dead?
The reason I think it took me so long to say I was an atheist was because I always had this sense that maybe there was something in it that I just wasn't 'getting' - maybe one day the penny would drop and I would understand what people were talking about. I sort of admired that a belief in god seemed to genuinely help people in their lives.
NoCapo I'm fascinated by your story. You have seen both sides of the coin. I don't know if it is possible for you to explain something: You say
Quote:
I "knew" there was a God, and I "knew" exactly which one it was.
I know this is a long shot and a difficult question, but is there any way you can explain how you 'knew'? This is probably the biggest mystery to me - how people just 'know'?
NoCapo I'm fascinated by your story. You have seen both sides of the coin. I don't know if it is possible for you to explain something: You say I know this is a long shot and a difficult question, but is there any way you can explain how you 'knew'? This is probably the biggest mystery to me - how people just 'know'?
Honestly, in hindsight, it was a combination of indoctrination, social pressure, and the unconscious mind constructing a consistent narrative.
I just "knew" in the same way I also "knew" that communism was bad, capitalism was good, and being gay was unnatural. Really just unquestioning acceptance of what my parents, my church, Dr Dobson, and a host of other taught me. It was just so obvious that it was right, that to question it was unthinkable.
No Problem! I have had this conversation with Arequipa before, but I tend to find you "free-range" atheists fascinating as well. It is amazing to me that so many have sort of slipped into it naturally, as a logical outgrowth of rational thought. It is so different from the way I got here.
-NoCapo
As you know, my story is similar to yours but I was more comfortable in evangelicalism as a child. I did not have an ulcer by 11 -- it took me until I was 14 and it was because of aspirin therapy for rheumatoid arthritis (misdiagnosed, as it turned out, it was really chronic Lyme -- totally cured now but that is another long story).
I suspect I would have cruised on in the faith but for the fact I married very badly ... a good Christian girl who nevertheless had mental health issues. I had a bit of a Jesus complex and thought I could save her -- just pray and trust god and all would be well. That it was paranoid schizophrenia and borderline personality disorder did not even give me pause. She got progressively worse and our marriage ended, 15 years and two children later, and it would not have lasted anywhere near that long without the divorce taboo. That was the beginning of the end for me, the realization that some people are just S.O.L. and god does not intervene. Later I remarried and my 2nd wife died in a very baroque and painful fashion over the ensuing 13 years from a rare neuro-immune disease. Again, crickets, even when there were things you really, absolutely needed and which were unambiguously good -- even just relief to die in peace -- crickets. That finished off what was left of my faith. I spent 3 or 4 years calling myself an agnostic, resisting the A-word because of its unsavory nature ... and then following a careful review of the facts and alternatives, accepted the Scarlet A after all.
It seems there are, as you say, "free range" atheists -- never saw the point -- then there are people like us, dragged kicking and screaming from the faith by pesky ol' reality.
From ages 9 thru 11, I pursued religion. For a short time, I thought I was saved and was trying to walk the walk. I visited family in Tennessee every summer in the early 80s, and they are very religious, with my grandfather's brother being a Baptist preacher. He bought me a bible with my name inscribed on the front. I thought it was the coolest thing! 30 years later, I still have that bible. Whenever I read a bible(which might be more frequently than one would think), I still read from the one he bought me.
But... there was always this nagging feeling, that it wasn't real. The adults that did believe, weren't very Christian-like. The people down south, when I visited there as a kid, seemed desperate to make sure I believed, as if to validate their own belief. Then, I was told by them, that my regular church- a Nazarene church- taught a false belief. I was like wtf? It's the same god?!?!?
Then there were other things that bothered me. It was so obvious to me that humans were part of the animal kingdom. I didn't even know about evolution at this time! But you look at the great apes, and it's quite apparent that we share something with them that is much deeper than just superficial appearance. It was also quite apparent to me, that we fit neatly in the class of mammals. Silly things bothered me like 'god's special creation' could be consumed by a predator such as a crocodile. I couldn't think of anything that separated us from the rest of the animal kingdom.
Well, my foray into religion lasted a few short months, although I would go to Sunday school for another full two years to appease my mother. I couldn't even make any friends there!
I think religion bothers me now more than it did when I begrudgingly went to Sunday School. I've been long set free from the shackles of religion, but yet I'm still inundated by this objectionable piffle almost daily!
I was raised a Catholic in the '60s with a Catholic dad and a Protestant mom. My dad would take us 3 kids to church every Sunday after we had reached First Communion age (7). Backtrack a couple of years...when I was 5 my aunt took me to a Mass at her church in Boston. I remember being crowded by all these tall adults in heavy coats in a pew near the back. The priest made a reference to death. I clearly remember that with everyone else standing, I sat down and felt very morose and sad. I didn't want to die! It was a very acute feeling of loneliness in those few moments that I can remember crystal-clear from almost 50 years ago.
Dad was a church-going Catholic but cursed like a sailor and had some negative character traits that "religion" never cured. I loved my dad unconditionally but saw great hypocrisy in his behavior, as well as that of neighborhood kids and some of their parents who were pious in the church but bullies and meanies the other 6 days. I could not tie the lessons of what I heard in church with what I saw around me all the time.
Fortunately, my father made the offer to let me drop out if I wanted after confirmation. I could finish out CCD at 13 and walk away. To keep him company, my siblings and I continued to attend church with him till our late teens. At no time during my youth, although I gave it an honest effort, did I ever feel anything click that told me there was truth in the whole God thing. I would kneel at caskets to say some Our Fathers and gibberish would go through my mind. I would hang out in church and compare girls' behinds. Nothing compelling about the Message.
My wife and I sent our kids through Catholic schools for part of their educations, mostly because the public schools here gave us gas. They got solid schooling indeed despite the trifling nonsense that we encountered from hypocritical parents and clergy. No problem. Both my teenaged sons are now non-believers. My wife and I left the choice completely up to them, and they both see religion as worthless.
It took me until I was 50 to really try and explore why I was so skeptical and resentful toward the brainwashing and indoctrination I withstood for so many years. Although I can count many "blessings" during my life, and extrication from some situations I have no explanation for, I started to feel duped and angry about all those years and asked why all those apparently nice people I knew, including family members, could fall for such a monumental hoax. I started reading Sam Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, Ehrman and maybe 8-10 others extensively. These writers cleared up so many mysteries for me and solidified my resolve to stand firm in my convictions that I can still be a giving and moral person without the clutter. I selfishly find it repulsive that any sane person can actually buy into the whole Jesus/Bible/reward/punishment hoax. It's painful for me. I really just want to reach out and scream sometimes when I see a televangelist ranting on and a bunch of young children in the audience. Poisoning young kids' minds to me is the most egregious "sin" there is regarding religion.
I never went through an agnostic phase. I just went straight to hell and figured out I was atheist. The idea of being agnostic depends on the idea that a "higher power" is definable, and with all the crazy ideas and differences of what god "might be like" I decided that even a definition of god was all over the spectrum and to reserve the idea that I "might believe in one of those ideas at some time" ... I just decided to be honest and say I'm atheist.
Well, for me it is not so much regret, as it is a bitterness and anger at a system that deceived me so completely and for so long, and at myself for buying into it. I have mostly gotten over it, but sometimes it still bugs me. I have tried to make a conscious choice not to dwell on the negative, and instead choose to life my life in its current freedom, but sometimes it is hard.
It is hard for me to say what I missed out on. I don't know that any other altenative path would have turned out better, but it certainly would have been different. Also, it is hard for me to separate out other aspects of my upbringing from religion, because it was so central to my family life and upbringing. I learned to speak by repeating Biblical names with my mom (Mephibosheth, the lame grandson of King Saul was my favorite...). Until I was a teenager, I was not exposed to non-religious music at all, with the exception of a few pieces of classical music. I was 'saved' at 4, and then recommitted my life to God at 7, because I wasn't sure I really understood what that meant when I did it the first time. before I was 10 , I keenly felt my own unholiness and sinful nature, to the point that I would not take communion, because "he who eateth and drinketh unworthily, drinketh damnation to himself". This also translated to other areas; I gav myself an ulcer by 11 because I was convinced that my I was convinced that anything less than perfection, particularly in school, was indicitive of deep character flaws I was homeschooled starting in 5th grade, until I graduated. I deeply wanted a calling from God to the ministry, becasue I felt that to do anything else was a waste of my life, but I would not make the leap without feeling a supernatural call. I prayed, begged and pleaded with God to show me what I was supposed to do, and assumed that the silence was becasue I was doing it wrong, that it was a lack of faith or trust or some other failing on my part. Until college, I had no non-Christian friends, I had not dated, had really no area of my life that was not shaped by religion.
While I was in college, I was becoming increasingly frustrated with the silence from God. It was compounded becasue at the time I attended an Assemblies of God church, where the expectations were that a relationship with God was very active and dynamic. Everyone else was having "words from the Lord" and being given direct guidance and leading. God was speaking to them, but no matter how much I prayed, served, and studies, He didn't speak to me. My Dad and I at the same time found a new and exciting variation of Christianity, the Grace movement. It was the idea that if you are saved by Grace and not of works, then you need to live in it, to let go and stop trying for God's approval, He already loves you and is as happy with you as He can be. It was liberating for a while, but eventually the divine silence was overwhelming again. I managed to hold on for years, assuming it was my problem, and frantically clinging to God's grace in the face of the silence. It was years later, after I was married that it all came ot a head for me. I was very involved in our local church, to the point of exhaustion. My wife had had her own epiphany that maybe what we had been taught was not right, that it didn't make sense. Because of this she was pulling away from the church, and I was caught in the middle. At some point, I threw up my hands and said, "I give up". None of it was making sense, and I couldn't go on making all these excuses. I prayed and told God, "I can't do this anymore, so if you want me you need to give me something to hang on to. The ball is in your court.", and I walked away. For a while, I was sort of waiting for God to come after me, you know the lost sheep sort of thing. Over time I realized that there was, like always nothing from on high. It was then that I started reevaluating everything I believed, and was shocked that there was no good evidence that the world was formed in 7 days 6000 years ago, that we don't really know who wrote the bible, but it is almost certain that it isn't who we thought, and that a lot of my emotional experiences in worship were replicated by art, awe of nature, and other things that have nothing to do with God. It was when these things started happening that I made a quick slide through agnosticism to atheism.
Even today, I could believe again, if God would reveal himself to me, but over time, as I learn and grow the bar gets ever higher. 5 years ago, I would have gone back for a warm fuzzy feeling or a sense of transcendent peace. Today I need much more evidence than my own emotional state to convince me.
On a positive note, I fell much more at peace with my own existence that I did. I have a sense of peace and stability I never did as a believer. My relationship with my wife is better, now that we are not both trying so hard to maintain our rigid religious selves, and can be open and honest with each other. There was a lot of energy expended in my Christian walk that I can now put into honest, real relationships with other people. I really don't miss my old life at this point.
-NoCapo
P.S. Sorry for the novel... Hard to sum up most of my life in a few pithy phrases.
Thanks for sharing this. It sounds to me like you had a fascinating spiritual journey earlier in life.
I don't think you need to feel bad about it. Sometimes, we have to travel a bit to find out there's nothing left at the end of the road.
never mind the question...that was a great answer.
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never mind the question...that was a great answer.
