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Old 06-27-2013, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,212,032 times
Reputation: 14007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
And we have yet another attempt to say that Atheism is in fact or becoming a religion.

Horse droppings. Those who claim to be religious just cannot stand the fact that many do not need/share their beliefs so these kind of stories pop up.
Stupid atheists trying to make atheism a "religion". That sure isn't what is best for atheism.

Still, you'd have to be blind to not see that's EXACTLY what's going on here and in many other cases. Luckily there are as many different kinds of atheists as there are theists so the whole idea isn't screwed.
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:35 PM
 
354 posts, read 246,030 times
Reputation: 105
This seems like a fun little mind game to play

Quote:
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm
and promote:
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
I don't exactly like the idea of assigning "worth" to people, but at the very least I'd say people have potential worth, not inherent worth. I've no problem treating people with dignity, but I'm not sure people have inherent dignity.

Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Justice is very sticky for me, as it typically means punitive revenge. I'm not good with justice as punitive revenge. Second, equity will never be obtained in a world where we assign "worth" to people, because that worth is never static and always variable. Lastly, I'm all on board with compassion.

Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
What the hell does "spiritual" mean?

A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
As long as we understand truth to be tentative and probable. Meaning (in this context) is a flashy word that holds little import to me, and is generally used by theists to promote one god or the other.

The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
Who was it that said something like, "Democracy is the worst possible system of government, and yet better than all the others"? Sadly, I'm not a big fan of democracy and believe it's only an extreme lack of imagination that hasn't landed us with something better. Seriously, rule by popularity when a significant percentage of the humans on this planet do not have the mental capacity to make reasonable, sound decisions. We need a system that employees something akin to the scientific method to govern our world.

The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
I adore the idea of a world community at peace (not the divisive, nationalistic system we currently employ). Liberty ("Freedom, Oh Freedom"), as the Eagles say, "that's just some people talkin'". Justice, read above.

Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Guess I appreciate this idea, but not sure I "respect" it.


Seems I'd be a sticker in the side of even a non-god based church.
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,121 posts, read 18,599,788 times
Reputation: 18730
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
What the hell does "spiritual" mean?

:
Opinion w/o evidence + mystical spin = spiritual.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Canada
124 posts, read 120,202 times
Reputation: 74
The problem with groups or gatherings is that sooner or later someone will want to be in charge, and start making rules about behavior or topics of discussion. That's how religions get started, and why most of us left them. When we want to get together, we already have a venue: It's called "Happy Hour."
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:52 PM
 
354 posts, read 246,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Opinion w/o evidence + mystical spin = spiritual.
Huh... a formula. Nice! So basically 0 + 0 = 0. My thoughts too.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:58 PM
 
354 posts, read 246,030 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooshi View Post
The problem with groups or gatherings is that sooner or later someone will want to be in charge, and start making rules about behavior or topics of discussion. That's how religions get started, and why most of us left them. When we want to get together, we already have a venue: It's called "Happy Hour."
With the added benefit that "Happy Hour" can actually be fun. Guess that's a little harsh. I'm sure some people who attend church actually have a good time, at least I hope they do.
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:10 PM
 
39,206 posts, read 10,887,543 times
Reputation: 5096
[quote=NOTaTHEIST;30224197]...

The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
Who was it that said something like, "Democracy is the worst possible system of government, and yet better than all the others"? Sadly, I'm not a big fan of democracy and believe it's only an extreme lack of imagination that hasn't landed us with something better. Seriously, rule by popularity when a significant percentage of the humans on this planet do not have the mental capacity to make reasonable, sound decisions. We need a system that employees something akin to the scientific method to govern our world.

..[/quote]

This struck a particular chord with me. I think it was Winston Churchill who said that. Democracy is far better than the alternatives but obviously needs a law code or constitution rather than just rule my mob riot.

I am deeply suspicious of charismatic demagogues who get power by whipping up audience frenzy or elitist oligarchy who don't see why deliberating on what the crowd needs shouldn't include hiving off some rich pickings for themselves.

Yes, I do dream of some form of government by reason, but I am also sure that it requires a whole new level of education, because the mob seems to have progressed little since the 18th century. In my area it seems more like the 18th c BC.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:28 PM
 
354 posts, read 246,030 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I think it was Winston Churchill who said that.
Thank you. Yes, it was Churchill. Here's the exact quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchill
It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
He also said this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchill
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
That one is rich!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Yes, I do dream of some form of government by reason, but I am also sure that it requires a whole new level of education, because the mob seems to have progressed little since the 18th century. In my area it seems more like the 18th c BC.
Yes indeed or...

maybe the zombie apocalypse .

All kidding aside, about the only thing I can think of that would bring about a reasonable government at this point, would be a near complete memetic wipe. As a society, we are so completely bound by our cultural memes, it seems near on impossible we'll ever have the ability to build a government based upon reason.

Last edited by NOTaTHEIST; 06-27-2013 at 10:38 PM..
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Old 06-28-2013, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
I don't exactly like the idea of assigning "worth" to people, but at the very least I'd say people have potential worth, not inherent worth. I've no problem treating people with dignity, but I'm not sure people have inherent dignity.
Agreed. People like to prattle about "inherent worth" because it gives the a free pass and relieves them of any anxiety they have about being found wanting in comparison to others. That said, I think most such angst is unwarranted if worth is properly measured, not as "pulling your own weight" or some such, but as "living up to the fullness of your own potential, whatever that may be". The grocery bagger with Down's Syndrome at my local grocery store lives up to her full potential even if by some measures of raw capability that potential is arguably less. Therefore she need not feel inferior in any way to the Ivy League professors and scientists whose groceries she bags. This is what "inherent worth" and "human dignity" should really mean. It allows full membership to the disadvantaged without excusing laziness or attitudes of entitlement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Justice is very sticky for me, as it typically means punitive revenge. I'm not good with justice as punitive revenge. Second, equity will never be obtained in a world where we assign "worth" to people, because that worth is never static and always variable. Lastly, I'm all on board with compassion.
Retribution is only a very small part of justice and if it is punitive it is distorted anyway. Justice is simply either the absence of injustice or, more pragmatically and typically, undoing injustice. Properly approached, justice is one of the major tools we have for alleviating human suffering.

I believe that equity is possible when worth is understood as fully using whatever assets life dealt you -- it then becomes nothing more than what the framers of the US constitution termed "the pursuit of happiness" -- it becomes not marginalizing or forgetting the equal importance of everyone's contribution regardless of relative size and complexity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
What the hell does "spiritual" mean?
As always it means precisely what each person says it means, no more and no less ;-) Perhaps it is simply meant here as allowing each person to pursue that, whatever they conceive it to be. If so, I'm fine with that, although I may choose not to be around some other people's conception of "spirituality".
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
As long as we understand truth to be tentative and probable. Meaning (in this context) is a flashy word that holds little import to me, and is generally used by theists to promote one god or the other.
Alas, I think most people still are convinced at some level that there is some ultimate and final Truth if only it could be discovered and agreed upon -- but I'm with you on this one. As for meaning -- that is a personal construct, like spirituality only less nebulous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
Who was it that said something like, "Democracy is the worst possible system of government, and yet better than all the others"? Sadly, I'm not a big fan of democracy and believe it's only an extreme lack of imagination that hasn't landed us with something better. Seriously, rule by popularity when a significant percentage of the humans on this planet do not have the mental capacity to make reasonable, sound decisions. We need a system that employees something akin to the scientific method to govern our world.
If it's a lack of imagination then we are probably not ready as a species for "something better". It's helpful though to remember that virtually no one lives in a pure democracy, for pretty much the reasons you suggest; in general we live in some form of republic which is intended to throttle the worst excesses of mob rule. Also, there is the separate issue of economic system; capitalism also has serious problems, especially its need of constant growth at all costs, yet we have not yet invented a better overall system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
I adore the idea of a world community at peace (not the divisive, nationalistic system we currently employ). Liberty ("Freedom, Oh Freedom"), as the Eagles say, "that's just some people talkin'". Justice, read above.
Agreed ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Guess I appreciate this idea, but not sure I "respect" it.
I think they are just saying it's good to remember we depend on each other and any actions we take impact others. I think that's a good sentiment to keep front and center for people. It encourages deference, consideration and humility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
Seems I'd be a sticker in the side of even a non-god based church.
You and I both ... frankly I would just rather live these ideas and philosophies out in the real world where the rubber meets the road.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Canada
124 posts, read 120,202 times
Reputation: 74
There's no need for a congregation.
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