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Old 11-09-2016, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,212 posts, read 18,624,767 times
Reputation: 18760

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post

Until the last few days of the campaign Clinton was gleefully baiting him and he took it every time. Someone in the Trump campaign must have figured out a way to explain how Clinton was getting inside his head in a way that appealed to his vanity ... that and the gift of Comey's quasi-reopened non-investigation. They ultimately managed to exploit it very well, and to keep Trump off Twitter until election day itself.

.
My impression is that Secretary Clinton's campaign largely manufactured its own defeat by ceding the initiative to Trump in the home stretch. The strategy appeared to be gearing down and going low profile while allowing Trump to defeat himself with his character flaws. What you describe above, Trump going non outrageous while the opposition waited for him to explode, was exactly the correct counter strategy.

It fixed matters so that what had always been Trump's cynical reliance, that America would vote for the bigger celebrity, was greatly enhanced. The final two weeks of the campaign were all about Trump. Turn on Fox and the story was them defending Donald against the latest calumny, flip to MSNBC and the story is them reporting the latest accusation, over on CNN the coverage is tape of Trump calling MSNBC liars. About all you saw of Clinton was when Fox was recycling e-mail scandal material.

It was right at the start of the second debate that I began having doubts about Clinton winning. The first question of the night was from someone who asked if this debate was going to be conducted on a more civil basis than the first. Clinton responded with an automatic "That is an excellent question" and followed that with a stock bit from her stump speech which had nothing at all to do with the question... which went unanswered. Really? I thought. This is the best that she can do?

She seemed to get more fatigued, radiated lower energy the closer we came to election day. She was clearly on automatic pilot, delivering the same general women & kids platitudes. It was hard to avoid the impression of the tired old woman vs the swaggering man, even though they are more or less the same age.

The Clintons did not make these sorts of political mistakes back in the '90's, they may have lost their edge. What was needed down the stretch was some hardball, and what we got was the impression that Hillary was running for the presidency of the Lifetime Movie Channel.
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Old 11-10-2016, 04:24 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,026,584 times
Reputation: 1368
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
The Onion did a fine piece describing how I feel.

“This just isn’t the America I know,” said Garlock, adding that the broad national support for a candidate who openly expresses misogynistic, racist, and authoritarian views had caused him to call into question everything he thought he knew about his spectacularly unrealistic, wholly imaginary conception of the nation he calls home. “I just can’t believe that almost 60 million people would vote for someone who called immigrants rapists and attacked women and disabled people. The America [selectively constructed from my own experiences and personal values, and which only exists in my mind] that I love would never do that.”


Area Liberal No Longer Recognizes Fanciful, Wildly Inaccurate Mental Picture Of Country He Lives In - The Onion - America's Finest News Source
agreed, this is not my america either. Personal accountability and national interests secondary to getting me and my own is not the america I know.

I can't believe people would actually think that letting boys in girls bath room is a rational thought. That may not be a society changing rule but the thinking of these people is so far screwed that they can not be trusted to make economic decisions.

I agree, calling people names is bad. But Politically correct Hilly and her crew have us in 10^12 debt. We must make some seriously hard economic choices and liberal are incapable of making such choices.

trump is not pretty. He is even rude and insensitive. well, nicey, nicey, got us a debt that we can't pay off. Nicey, nicey, has parents that do their job and child of those parents going to pay for milions and millions of people that do not care about themselves, let alone anybody else. We have 9th graders today that are going to pay for twice the number of people in the future.

that future is 10-15 years away. yeah, liberal's get it @ not.
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Old 11-10-2016, 06:06 AM
 
Location: minnesota
6,390 posts, read 2,141,968 times
Reputation: 2190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
Quote:
agreed, this is not my america either. Personal accountability and national interests secondary to getting me and my own is not the america I know.
Personal accountability also includes how you treat those that are different/less able than you. I left home at 19 with $50 in my pocket. I was raised in a cult and taught to fear "the world". Today I have a nice life and financial security based in part on my own efforts. I have never gotten any kind of aid or even a renter's rebate. Can you say the same? The fact that I was born with and developed characteristics that helped me succeed is luck of the draw. The fact that women can get jobs and own things in luck of where and when I was born. Now that I have some peace in my life I want to help others succeed. I don't have to worry about me and my own. We'll be fine no matter what life throws at us. I can't conceive of how anyone would think a 1st world country let's any citizens go without medical attention or food. I'm not sure what you mean by national interests unless you are referring to Trump asking Russia to hack the US.

Quote:
I can't believe people would actually think that letting boys in girls bath room is a rational thought. That may not be a society changing rule but the thinking of these people is so far screwed that they can not be trusted to make economic decisions.
Come off it already! You can't even claim that now after you voted for grabbing p****** It never was about decency or protecting anyone and there goes your proof.

Quote:
I agree, calling people names is bad. But Politically correct Hilly and her crew have us in 10^12 debt. We must make some seriously hard economic choices and liberal are incapable of making such choices.
It goes far beyond name calling for me. That may be part of the problem that we talk past each other. Trump violated (over and over)what I consider to be my core values. You were able to minimize that were I just can't. I'm not trying to say you don't have values but we see the situation entirely different.

Quote:
trump is not pretty. He is even rude and insensitive. well, nicey, nicey, got us a debt that we can't pay off. Nicey, nicey, has parents that do their job and child of those parents going to pay for milions and millions of people that do not care about themselves, let alone anybody else. We have 9th graders today that are going to pay for twice the number of people in the future.
I disagree. I get the system is broken but I'm not willing to even have the hope of fixing it at that price. I doubt Trump has some magic wand he will be able to wave but if he does I'm sure he will be trying to stick it where it doesn't belong and there will be someone cheering him on. What I object to are things that came out of his own mouth not some cloak and dagger conspiracy theory.

Quote:
that future is 10-15 years away. yeah, liberal's get it @ not
.
Yeah, just keep calling everyone else stupid and go back to playing victim in the great game of life (I thought the victim card was supposed to be a liberal thing)

I hope you are right that he is able to fix some things. That's all I have on that.

can someone please tell me how to properly use the quote feature?
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Old 11-10-2016, 06:45 AM
 
Location: minnesota
6,390 posts, read 2,141,968 times
Reputation: 2190
Great tedtalk on liberals & conservatives

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_h...the_moral_mind

edit: He did another for this past election

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_h...d_america_heal

Last edited by L8Gr8Apost8; 11-10-2016 at 07:01 AM..
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Old 11-10-2016, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,107,204 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Lets hope so. I hope he can learn from his mistakes. In an effort to find things to be positive about there have been at least some vague glimmers of that. Trump is an enigma. I don't think I've ever come across anyone like him. One minute he's being nice as pie to someone and two minutes later he's calling that same person names directly to their face. He changes like the wind.
It is his overweening need for attention, even and maybe especially negative attention, which he just pulls whatever lever presents itself to obtain.

I think he wants, not "positive change" (other than for himself) but to "win". Think of Charlie Sheen in his manic phase, chanting "winning!" Everything is a zero sum, no holds barred, take no prisoners game with only winners and losers and he intends to be the winner. If others incidentally win he's fine with that so long as they understand they owe him something. If others incidentally loose he's fine with that too, and let that be a lesson to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
There are anti-Trump demonstrations going on in New York outside Trump tower tonight. Emotions are running high. I sympathise. I felt that same non-acceptance for months after Brexit, but gradually you have to accept the result of the vote. We have no choice but to see what happens now. I've been watching the news closely today. What has become clear is that this is more about a rejection of the establishment than a lot of us realised.
I am too old for this crap so I am already philosophical about it. I could have gone downtown last night and joined a solidarity protest against Trump or lit a candle at a nearby church and contemplated the Trumpocalypse that is upon us but I just don't have it in me anymore. I worked my heart out for Bernie and that was my contribution. If America couldn't see a morally unambiguous gift horse when put right in front of them, I don't know what they WILL value. And as one Tweet cogently observed on election night concerning Clinton, "The inability to see the difference between an imperfect ally and an enemy is the hight of entitled arrogance and will be our undoing".

In addition, I don't believe the normal "well I disagree with him but he's my president" rhetoric applies here. Not when the man has gone beyond simply having an agenda I don't support, but actively insults, attacks, degrades and demeans people who he randomly identifies as The Other and not when he undermines civil discourse and the very ideals on which our republic is based. There are a LOT of people who not only oppose him but reject him and will never support him as "their" president, and I don't blame them. This is a unique situation and uncharted territory. If it weren't so serious I'd break out the popcorn and sit back and watch. As it is, I think I am just going to impose a news and Twitter blackout on myself until I can start taking it again in small doses.
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Old 11-10-2016, 07:57 AM
 
39,273 posts, read 10,931,096 times
Reputation: 5103
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
Yeah, just keep calling everyone else stupid and go back to playing victim in the great game of life (I thought the victim card was supposed to be a liberal thing)

I hope you are right that he is able to fix some things. That's all I have on that.

can someone please tell me how to properly use the quote feature?
Hit the quote button and you get the post quoted and just put up you reply below, but you know that.

It's trickier if you want to split it up in individual replies. I find you can type the closing quote with "/" in at the end of the previous quote and add the quote in square brackets to the start of the next. That splits the quoted text into two with your reply in between.

Like so

Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
Yeah, just keep calling everyone else stupid and go back to playing victim in the great game of life (I thought the victim card was supposed to be a liberal thing)

Now I might reply:


Quote:
"Just so he doesn't come crying to us when Trump doesn't turn the US into a Liberal -free paradise but rather as his personal continent-sized piggy bank"

I hope you are right that he is able to fix some things. That's all I have on that.

can someone please tell me how to properly use the quote feature?
But it all gets lumped in together, but tail one bit with the closing quote and use the opener on the next as there you are

Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
Yeah, just keep calling everyone else stupid and go back to playing victim in the great game of life (I thought the victim card was supposed to be a liberal thing)
Yo, I think the smarts are there but he tries to reason by balancing out prejudices and telling himself if he has an irrational beef with liberals balanced by an uninformed grouse with Conservatives that makes him the only reasonable one around.

Quote:
I hope you are right that he is able to fix some things. That's all I have on that.

can someone please tell me how to properly use the quote feature?
And there y' go.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-10-2016 at 08:16 AM..
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:33 AM
 
1,294 posts, read 613,000 times
Reputation: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
can someone please tell me how to properly use the quote feature?
I normally hit the Quote button to get the full quote with the quote tags ( "[ QUOTE = etc. ] [/ QUOTE ]").

Then select all (CTRL+A) and copy (CTRL+C). Then I cut out just the bit I'm responding to, write my response. Then paste the full quote again (CTRL+P) then cut out the next bit I am responding to and repeat.

I don't think there's necessarily a "proper" way.
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,884 posts, read 3,801,141 times
Reputation: 4624
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
In addition, I don't believe the normal "well I disagree with him but he's my president" rhetoric applies here. Not when the man has gone beyond simply having an agenda I don't support, but actively insults, attacks, degrades and demeans people who he randomly identifies as The Other and not when he undermines civil discourse and the very ideals on which our republic is based. There are a LOT of people who not only oppose him but reject him and will never support him as "their" president, and I don't blame them. This is a unique situation and uncharted territory. If it weren't so serious I'd break out the popcorn and sit back and watch. As it is, I think I am just going to impose a news and Twitter blackout on myself until I can start taking it again in small doses.
I agree. Trump stands in opposition to every moral fibre I have in my body. He doesn't represent me either.

While i think it's all very well to go out and protest, the fact of the matter is that 6 million democrats who voted for Obama stayed at home and didn't vote for Hillary. Trump did win this election fair and square. It's too late. And the people who are out protesting are already in the states that remained Democrat.
I have to believe that a lot of what he said he would do won't be possible anyway.
I seriously doubt he's going to get his wall built and get Mexico to pay for it . I doubt he going to be able to deport 6 million Mexicans. He might be able to rebuild some roads and bridges (I'm speaking physically rather than metaphorically here) and hospitals and airports. I'm an eternal optimist and trying to find some glimmers of hope here.
This is going to be a loooong 4 years.
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Old 11-10-2016, 09:35 AM
Status: "Watching America made small." (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,914 posts, read 13,475,238 times
Reputation: 11713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
...snip...

This is going to be a loooong 4 years.
Maybe not. Maybe he'll do something especially Trumpish and get impeached.
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Old 11-10-2016, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,107,204 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I agree. Trump stands in opposition to every moral fibre I have in my body. He doesn't represent me either.

While i think it's all very well to go out and protest, the fact of the matter is that 6 million democrats who voted for Obama stayed at home and didn't vote for Hillary. Trump did win this election fair and square. It's too late.
I don't think the point of the protests is to demand the invalidation of the election or something. It is to stand in solidarity and put him on notice that he will be opposed vigorously. And I think there's value in that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
And the people who are out protesting are already in the states that remained Democrat.
By and large, which sort of supports my post above. But protests in states that turned red doesn't necessarily mean the protestors didn't themselves vote against Trump anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I have to believe that a lot of what he said he would do won't be possible anyway.
I seriously doubt he's going to get his wall built and get Mexico to pay for it . I doubt he going to be able to deport 6 million Mexicans. He might be able to rebuild some roads and bridges (I'm speaking physically rather than metaphorically here) and hospitals and airports. I'm an eternal optimist and trying to find some glimmers of hope here.
In Trump's fact-free world that doesn't mean he won't try and just the attempt is harmful enough. Sure he probably can't get away with jack-booted storm troopers deporting non-criminals by the millions, but he could maybe get away with causing human suffering on a relatively smaller but still massive scale. Even just the fear, uncertainty and doubt post-election represents tremendous and needless human suffering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
This is going to be a loooong 4 years.
Why just 4? All he has to do is start a war that he claims only he can win, at the start of the next election cycle.

I don't see any reason to think that all those knuckle-draggers will throw him out after 4 years just because he didn't fulfill his hateful promises. It will be the fault of the Democrats or a secret Hillary-run cabal or something. He will still be a hero for trying, for his opposition to "political correctness" and appointing conservative SCOTUS justices. The bar is exceedingly low for him. He just has to poke people in the eye unapologetically to satisfy his base. He doesn't actually have to ACCOMPLISH anything.

And now that he has normalized uncivil discourse we will have some version of Trump to contend with from now on in EVERY election cycle, with the likely refinement that the next one to come along will be less obviously oafish and cruel, and more politically astute, and thus less likely to trigger American's increasingly dysfunctional gag reflex. As a bonus, such a beast will look GOOD compared to Trump.

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of ways for Trump to overreach and his base's days are numbered. It's just that I don't know that the Republic can take the damage he, and they, will do in the meantime.

The other thing I worry is the emptiness of the Democratic bench. Who is the next national-level progressive champion on the horizon? Sanders is almost certainly too old to run again; he'll be 79 at the start of the next election cycle. The best use of him (which won't be made) would be to put him in charge of the DNC now, rather than Obama or Clinton. Who else has experience and credibility and isn't too young or too old?

Sorry to be so upbeat today but ... there you have it.
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