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Old 07-10-2013, 12:11 PM
 
141 posts, read 172,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
Actually, I was just talking with a student of religion who was telling me about the debate over whether Jesus did indeed exist - apparently, it's something that isn't entirely established.

And tell me, have you fact-checked the Bible? It's got a lot of historical stuff in there that is definitely up for debate, and other parts still are really just opinion or prophecy.
Seriously many non-Christians, especially atheists and Jews deny the existence of Jesus because they are Anti-Christians, simple as that. A well-known Orthodox Jew who was trying to run for congress wrote an interesting book called "Kosher Jesus", interesting.

 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,355 posts, read 12,114,801 times
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Often I believe something because I respect the person who told me.
BTW, I saw a UFO once right above my childhood home, silently traveling East.
People believe me because they know me.

I believe Constantine was some pretty smart cookie. If he believed in a Jesus
just 300 years later...I believe there was such a man.
I trust him more than Mark, Matthew, Luke, John or Paul.
Just sayin...and then aheists seeing him in NDEs, (not knowing who he was in the moment)
gave me pause!! I must say.
 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:18 PM
 
141 posts, read 172,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
I believe Constantine was some pretty smart cookie. If he believed in a Jesus
just 300 years later...I believe there was such a man.
 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,191 posts, read 9,077,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
As far as the last point, as an atheist, I do not believe Christianity or any religion can be evaluated on any other merit besides "organized religion". That is quite literally all they are!
As a Christian I was quite attached to "relationship not religion" and similar ideas so let me add a couple of points here for the benefit of Christians who wish to disassociate themselves from the excesses of organized religion and wish us to address the "actual" Christian faith.

1) When looking at Christians in aggregate, what else do I have to evaluate other than their public-facing church and para-church organizations? Christians self-organize into denominations and those denominations sometimes participate in organizations cooperatively (e.g., Campus Crusade for Christ, Wycliffe Bible Translators, and the recently disbanded Exodus International). Doing this does not magically divest Christianity of any responsibility for the actions of these organizations. No organization perfectly represents the personal views and values of each and every member, but they are fair game as a general expression of Christian thought and action.

We have to be careful of course to distinguish conservatives from liberals, etc., but I think it's fair to say that if for example conservative Christian denominations and organizations tend to be anti-intellectual, anti-abortion, homophobic, in favor of ID etc., that conservative Christians tend to be that way. If a few outriggers are embarrassed by being caught in that crossfire, I'm sorry, but it is what it is. You are so in the minority that you would probably be disowned or reprimanded as not sufficiently dedicated. And if sane Christian conservatives are such a tiny minority, then they are just the exception that proves the rule.

2) "By their fruits you shall know them". Again, in the aggregate, we can only look at the character traits expressed in the aggregate ... so we look at the organizational character.

3) Personal convictions about things are just that, personal. If most Christian organizations will not subscribe to them then they are just the fragmented opinions of people who claim to be Christians.

4) If personal beliefs and doctrines don't survive to be expressed organizationally by most Christian organizations then to what extent can they claim to be Christian? I would submit that theory is belied by practice. In theory, a Christian is all sweetness and light, but if all those sweet Christians can band together and produce something like the Inquisition, what good is it?

5) I had some contact in my Christian days with the "house church" movement which was yet another effort to circumvent bureaucracy and ritual and overhead and keep things real. In my experience all it produced was power trips for people who wanted to be big fish in little ponds. This is how the disaster that was the shepherding movement functioned, typically with "cell" leaders at a very low level meeting in homes, even when under the auspices of a larger church. It just kicks the can down the road, it doesn't do anything about the inconvenient truth that Christianity, contrary to its claims, does not fix human nature.
 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:23 PM
 
2,478 posts, read 4,866,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olamm View Post
What does it matter if they met him or not? Provide me proof how Earth was created, that 6 million Jews really died during holocaust, the crusades really occured, Buddha existed, Muhammed existed.

There are plenty of people who have met Jesus. Yes, the Bible is 100% accurate.
How can the bible be 100% accurate when there are hundreds of contradictions throughout? As a former Christian and current Atheist, I find it funny how christians not only pick and choose what to believe in the bible, they ignore the obvious hatred, bigotry and contradictions of the very book they try to model their lives after. And I have yet to get a straight answer as to why so many blindly believe a book in which they have never met the author(s). I don't deny the existence of a man named Jesus. I would go so far as to believe he told people he was the son of god. What I find funny, is that Christians seem to think that con-men didn't live in previous times. And to me, that is what Jesus was. A con-man who suckered poor ignorant people.

As far as your original question, most of us don't bash chrisitans. However, many, and I would say "most, consider any disagreement or disdain for you attempts to inject your religion into law as "bashing". I have worked for a very large ministry located right here in Texas. Interesting how the most unscrupulous, deceitful people I have ever met have been in "church". And it's not just a few bad apples. A large portion of self proclaimed christians commit crimes and then blame it on the devil. More people have been killed in the name of religion than out.

Man created Gods for things he didn't understand. Which is why there are so many types. But religion, and christianity in particular does not allow free thinking. For it if it did, it would not be successful in controlling. Religion is a tool used to control. A successful one at that. Man is weak. Most cannot handle the thought of no after life nor the thought of death. The thought that there is nothing after we die. It's scary. In the grand scheme, it's actually quite brilliant. I'm glad I saw through it a decade ago and started thinking for myself!
 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:26 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
9,033 posts, read 8,742,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olamm View Post
Yes, the Bible is 100% accurate.
More proselytizing.
 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:32 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
9,033 posts, read 8,742,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olamm View Post
Baloney. Hitler also rejected his faith later and attacked the church and its leader.

Hitler said to a colleague in 1933:

'Neither Catholic nor Protestant has any future left... Nothing will stop me stamping out Christianity in Germany, root and branch. One is either a Christian or a German. You be both... Do you really believe the masses will ever be Christian again? Nonsense. Never again. No one will listen to it again. But we can hasten matters. The clergy will be made to dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable little jobs and incomes.'
In 1933 he also said:

"I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity."

and

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."

and

"We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion. We owe Providence humble gratitude for not allowing us to lose our battle against the misery of unemployment and for the salvation of the German peasant."

and

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

In 1934 he said:

"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles."

Your move.
 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:33 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
9,033 posts, read 8,742,864 times
Reputation: 5665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olamm View Post
By proselytizing it will convince you to convert and believe?
Not in a billion years. So why do you keep doing it? It's specifically against the rules of this sub-forum.
 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:34 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,317,939 times
Reputation: 1786
I call POE or an incarnation of KDBrich.
 
Old 07-10-2013, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,355 posts, read 12,114,801 times
Reputation: 16598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olamm View Post
But, Olamm, don't get me wrong ...I believe Christianity as a whole is one mixed up
religion that has misinterpreted Jesus' words (their meanings) gravely.
As a result, I believe it has land locked a boat with huge sails...the soul.
I consider that a sort of crime...but I don't care ...it will all work out in the end.

I used to get mad at Christians in my head bec they were so transparently stupid with good hearts.
Transparently hypocritical, but also with good hearts.
Obviously repellling people from Jesus, but with good intentions.
Proclaiming wonderful things about their religion, YET, practicing fear, worry, doubt, shame, jealousy,
poverty, bigotry, anger, lack of peace and content or connection to God,..relying more on a map than the Destination.

But, yes, I believe he was a real man.
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