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Old 07-19-2013, 12:52 PM
 
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If there was a loving creator who made man as the apex of his universe, and who loved man, he would not have made creatures, from bacteria, to spiders. to fire ants, to snakes etc., capable of killing us (unless is a sadistic, not loving, creator).

Nor would he have deliberately made us capable of falling from "grace" especialling knowing in advace the exactl details of just that happening.

Conclusion?

No such creator does or could exist.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,612 posts, read 4,893,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Rossi View Post
Conclusion?
A Theist would say you do not understand how a god works.

In fact, this is what I saw recently posted in the Judaism forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
I certainly would not worship a G-d who was on my level of understanding.
So Theists do not question why their god does something. They simply accept it.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:04 PM
 
Location: NJ
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Clearly you are unfamiliar with the "god works in mysterious ways" and "god is testing us" line of thought.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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The Problem of Evil (which I prefer to call the Problem of Suffering or POS) comes up often in this space but this business of placing man at the apex of creation ("thou hast made him a little lower than the angels", etc) is something that doesn't, in my view, get enough attention, so thanks for bringing it up.

Prior to the "heresies" of Copernicus and Galileo, the church's cosmology was that earth was at the center of the universe, and man was god's unique self-aware creation. The Fall and the Redemption was a drama playing out on this central stage as the Main Event. It was intolerable to the church that science turned this front-and-center arrangement into a sideshow by making the Earth an insignificant planet orbiting an unremarkable star in an ordinary galaxy amongst millions of others. But ultimately they had no choice but to let go of being able to frame their narrative against that contrived backdrop.

Even today, though, especially in conservative Christianity, the explicit and implicit value propositions given to believers is a tremendous ego inflation:

* The creator and sustainer and ruler of the universe wants to have a "personal relationship" with you. Or as Jack Chick tracts present the gospel, "God loves you, and has a wonderful plan for your life."

* Said creator cares about the minutia of the daily lives of each and every believer, down to their private thoughts, sexual habits, and no doubt, what they eat for breakfast.

* Said creator tailors training, rewards, and punishments to each of these millions, and constructs elaborate eternal abodes for his followers and elaborate eternal torture chambers for those unable to believe -- and depending on who you talk to, even for those who simply never heard of him.

* Said creator promises to answer any request offered in faith by his followers and promises them an abundant, fulfilling life.

* Humans are said to be immortal and believers are destined for an afterlife in which "every tear will be wiped from their eyes".

What we have here are tremendously unrealistic expectations being set, particularly for those who are born into the belief-system. It sets them up for failure. Nothing in this life can possibly meet those expectations. Christians, at the same rates as non-Christians, die, get divorced, betrayed, lied to, take ill, are in terrible accidents, have annoying relatives and false friends. The differences is that they don't expect it because they are, after all, god's elect. And guess what, it's a sin to be hurt, or ashamed, or doubt god's goodness.

Instead, god has a sweet situation in which he gets 100% of the credit for everything that goes right, and the believer gets 100% of the blame for everything that goes wrong. Because if the promises of god aren't fulfilled, the problem can't possibly be on god's end. And of course, the problem can't possibly be that god isn't there pulling strings in the first place.

This is an incredibly pernicious system that causes much human suffering and angst. Lucky folks who never were taken in by this system mostly can't even get their arms around how the rest of us could have been such suckers -- it's that bad.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:23 PM
 
125 posts, read 132,447 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Rossi View Post
If there was a loving creator who made man as the apex of his universe, and who loved man, he would not have made creatures, from bacteria, to spiders. to fire ants, to snakes etc., capable of killing us (unless is a sadistic, not loving, creator).

Nor would he have deliberately made us capable of falling from "grace" especialling knowing in advace the exactl details of just that happening.

Conclusion?

No such creator does or could exist.
It has been observed for thousands of years that an all-powerful, all-good deity cannot logically exist in a world with evil.
Problem of evil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:54 PM
 
3,740 posts, read 3,070,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
A Theist would say you do not understand how a god works.

In fact, this is what I saw recently posted in the Judaism forum:



So Theists do not question why their god does something. They simply accept it.
How drone-like. Sad, very sad.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:55 PM
 
3,740 posts, read 3,070,203 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twist of Lime View Post
It has been observed for thousands of years that an all-powerful, all-good deity cannot logically exist in a world with evil.
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil"]Problem of evil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]
Another one of those square-peg in a round hold logic-disconnects associated with "belief".
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:57 PM
 
3,740 posts, read 3,070,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manderly6 View Post
Clearly you are unfamiliar with the "god works in mysterious ways" and "god is testing us" line of thought.
I am familiar with it, but recognize it as "non-thought".
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,612 posts, read 4,893,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Rossi View Post
How drone-like. Sad, very sad.
Hey, if it works for them, that's fine with me. Some people seem to be happier believing in a god.
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:24 PM
 
3,740 posts, read 3,070,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Hey, if it works for them, that's fine with me. Some people seem to be happier believing in a god.
Yes, their fear of death is assuaged, at least in a make-believe sense
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