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Old 09-06-2013, 03:07 PM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
We'd be fools to pretend there's no difference; we'd also be fools to pretend that women are somehow limited or inferior to men because of it.
As always, you have an excellent way of putting things. Inferior no, different yes. It may be true however that this difference does limit the rejection of god claims more than it does in men.

It appears true that the male brain doesn't involved emotion in its speech centers. We can assume this happens both on the output and input stages of language, both written and spoken. As such, the male brain perhaps has what we might call an "emotion filter" precognition. If it can strip emotions post-cognition (as science and everyday observation suggests) there's no reason to suggest it doesn't do the same precognition.

For instance, highly charged emotional statements like, "Jesus loves you" or "you're going to hell" might not have the same effect on the male brain as it does the female.
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Old 09-11-2013, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Wilsonville, OR
1,262 posts, read 1,871,195 times
Reputation: 2326
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
This is what I posted back on page 5. The link to the study is listed there.

Male oriented brains, hardly express feelings. It is due to the use of the
right hemisphere only. Male brains separate language, in the left, and emotions
in the right, while the female’s emotions are in both hemispheres. It helps
explain why the male brain has a hard time expressing its feelings

Edit: It's consistent. I was again reading it wrong. Deleted the confusion.
Quote:
It appears true that the male brain doesn't involved emotion in its speech centers. We can assume this happens both on the output and input stages of language, both written and spoken. As such, the male brain perhaps has what we might call an "emotion filter" precognition. If it can strip emotions post-cognition (as science and everyday observation suggests) there's no reason to suggest it doesn't do the same precognition.
What... absolute patent nonsense. What kind of study was this? I don't think most people would claim men and women are literally the same, but this kind of stuff is just ridiculous. It certainly doesn't apply to me or any of the other men I've known in my life. What's being described there is something that doesn't even sound human.

Anyway, I would imagine there are nearly as many female atheists as there are male atheists, but many of them avoid being vocal about it because the atheist community can often be an extremely misogynistic place that does not welcome female interaction and participation. This goes way deeper than a few internet fora or specific organizations, but is a systemic problem that permeates everything.

Last edited by Lunar Delta; 09-11-2013 at 11:48 AM..
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:54 PM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Delta
What... absolute patent nonsense. What kind of study was this?
Link to article; Gender Differences in Human Brain: A Review from: Department of Anatomy, Faculty of Medicine, King Saud University, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t.../37TOANATJ.pdf


Interestingly enough, I just noticed the study was done in Saudi Arabia. This may or may not have any bearing on the actual science. Please link any contradicting studies you can find. Perhaps I will also do some more poking around. It may actually be that in the Middle East, they are less sensitive to the social stigma surrounding this topic and thus are more willing to approach it.

This is quoted from the first paragraph making me think it's fairly legit...
Quote:
These differences may be attributed to various genetic, hormonal, and environmental
factors and do not reflect any overall superiority advantage to either sex. Both sexes are equal in intelligence, but tend to operate differently.
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Old 09-11-2013, 03:34 PM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Delta
Anyway, I would imagine there are nearly as many female atheists as there are male atheists, but many of them avoid being vocal about it because the atheist community can often be an extremely misogynistic place that does not welcome female interaction and participation.
First, as another poster noted, it's highly unlikely the atheist community is more misogynistic than the religious community. In fact, it's likely the opposite is true and that the religious community is much more so than the atheist. This seems to invalidate the argument that more women than men believe based upon misogyny. This got me thinking however. Women seem to avoid religious debate at a higher rate than men do. Is this because the subject is almost always emotionally charged? I know this is true with my mother who can't approach the subject of her belief without becoming emotionally charged.


Remember, we're talking about belief here. And because people aren't always honest about their beliefs it's difficult to quantify. The surveys seem to indicate women believe in a god at about 5-10 percent greater rate than men. I've been looking for surveys that indicate the opposite but yet to find any. Here's a link to another listing of a pew survey about prayer...

Why Women Hear God More Than Men Do | Christianity Today
The poll indicates that women tend to pray at a significantly higher rate than men.

Quote:
The 2008 Pew U.S. Religious Landscape Survey found that two-thirds of all women surveyed pray daily, while less than half of all men surveyed do. The Pew survey was unusually large, accounting for over 35,000 Americans, but gender differences in prayer frequency have been found before (notably by Paloma and Gallup in 1991).
Prayer may actually be a better indicator of belief than polling for belief. The article speculates that prayer requires a good imagination (I tend to agree) and that women have better imaginations than men. If this is true, it would be an indicator of innate brain function differences between the sexes.
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Wilsonville, OR
1,262 posts, read 1,871,195 times
Reputation: 2326
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
Link to article; Gender Differences in Human Brain: A Review from: Department of Anatomy, Faculty of Medicine, King Saud University, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

http://www.benthamscience.com/open/t.../37TOANATJ.pdf


Interestingly enough, I just noticed the study was done in Saudi Arabia. This may or may not have any bearing on the actual science. Please link any contradicting studies you can find. Perhaps I will also do some more poking around. It may actually be that in the Middle East, they are less sensitive to the social stigma surrounding this topic and thus are more willing to approach it.

This is quoted from the first paragraph making me think it's fairly legit...
One thing I've read that exposes a lot of the bias and methodological errors in such studies is this book. Really an excellent read:

Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference: Cordelia Fine: 9780393340242: Amazon.com: Books

Your comment about the Middle East is a little offensive. It isn't so much that they are less sensitive to the social stigma surrounding this topic, but rather they have very rigidly defined gender roles that anyone (especially a women) won't question unless they want to be totally ostracized or possibly even get a one-way ticket to a horrifying death.

Quote:
First, as another poster noted, it's highly unlikely the atheist community is more misogynistic than the religious community. In fact, it's likely the opposite is true and that the religious community is much more so than the atheist. This seems to invalidate the argument that more women than men believe based upon misogyny. This got me thinking however. Women seem to avoid religious debate at a higher rate than men do. Is this because the subject is almost always emotionally charged? I know this is true with my mother who can't approach the subject of her belief without becoming emotionally charged.
It doesn't invalidate anything. I'm sorry but anyone who would say this is either dense or has not had enough exposure to the atheist community in general. Misogyny is a very severe, rampant problem. I've even heard personal stories from women who say they felt less disliked and discriminated against in church! "Atheism" as a movement (rather than just a term) needs to do some serious introspection and cleaning up because it's never going to get anywhere like this.

Quote:
Prayer may actually be a better indicator of belief than polling for belief. The article speculates that prayer requires a good imagination (I tend to agree) and that women have better imaginations than men. If this is true, it would be an indicator of innate brain function differences between the sexes.
The article says no such thing. It says men are socialized to be more detached from their imaginations and that we should stop this and encourage them instead. I am glad my mother took this route; I can't imagine what it must be like to have a boring inner life.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:00 AM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Your comment about the Middle East is a little offensive. It isn't so much that they are less sensitive to the social stigma surrounding this topic, but rather they have very rigidly defined gender roles that anyone (especially a women) won't question unless they want to be totally ostracized or possibly even get a one-way ticket to a horrifying death.
Sorry, it's not offensive in the least to myself. Seems I must act like I'm walking on eggs around this subject. It's my opinion that the predominant religious culture in the region would leave them more open to addressing this subject without the same bias as western culture. However, at the same time their culture could also bias their findings, which is why I said that and why I quoted that bit that seemed to suggest otherwise.

Middle Eastern culture is not very women rights friendly. They rarely treat women as equals with the same rights as men. I don't think there's much argument to be found there. If they're offended by me noticing that (I'm certainly not the only one), well, what can I say but it seems true. At least I didn't say something bad about their prophet That **** can get you killed.

Quote:
It doesn't invalidate anything. I'm sorry but anyone who would say this is either dense or has not had enough exposure to the atheist community in general. Misogyny is a very severe, rampant problem. I've even heard personal stories from women who say they felt less disliked and discriminated against in church! "Atheism" as a movement (rather than just a term) needs to do some serious introspection and cleaning up because it's never going to get anywhere like this.
One can certainly be an atheist without belonging the "community". And as I've already stated, I'm not sure if community is really good for the atheist movement, or if atheism even needs a "movement". But as a whole, religion in general has a very long history of suppressing women, and should be considered much worse because of this. For instance, when is the last time you heard any atheist movement do anything but promote a women's right to choose? Conversely, how many times in the last month has a religious movement attempted to pass legislation to prohibit this. This is just one of many examples of female suppression the church is all over.

At any rate, the atheist movement is certainly not worse than most religious movements when it comes to female suppression and in my opinion would not be the actual cause of the disparity in belief between the sexes. Belief or lack of belief in a god probably has very little to do with misogyny. If it did, why are many women still deeply engaged in extremely misogynistic religions? It makes no sense. This argument seems like a big red herring.

I might add, this is the first time I've actually heard people complain about misogyny in the atheist movement. It is actually news to me as I've little exposure to this movement aside from listening to the "Atheist Experience" and the Austin, Texas community it is a part of. From what I've heard from them in particular, they're very women friendly and the women that represent them are simply outstanding examples.

Quote:
The article says no such thing.
I was speculating based upon this statement in the article. Sorry if my wording was not point on.

Quote:
As an anthropologist studying religious behavior, I have a different explanation: Women pray more because women are more comfortable with their imaginations, and in order to pray, you need to use your imagination.
Ok, I read "more comfortable with their imaginations" as "better at using their imagination/have better imaginations". This difference is quite negligible in my opinion. He was speculating and so was I based upon the above quote. In this case, I think my speculation is more accurately stated. Besides, having better imaginations should not be seen as a slight. If anything it's a compliment. That said, it could still leave you more vulnerable to believing in invisible friends (gods).

Quote:
It says men are socialized to be more detached from their imaginations and that we should stop this and encourage them instead.
I don't believe it's completely social. It's probably a combination of the social and the innate biological, as just about everything that governs human behavior is.


I'll check out that link and get back to you. It'd be nice if you would have quoted anything that directly contradicted what I quoted from the other study. It would save lots of time.

Last edited by NOTaTHEIST; 09-12-2013 at 12:16 AM..
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:14 AM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
Reputation: 105
Well, I guess I could attempt to check this out the library as I certainly will not be spending 30 bucks to purchase it. It seems this one sentence in what I can read validates my theory, even though the book may attempt to debunk it....

Quote:
It’s the twenty-first century, and although we tried to rear unisex
children—boys who play with dolls and girls who like trucks—we failed. Even
though the glass ceiling is cracked, most women stay comfortably beneath it. And
everywhere we hear about vitally important “hardwired” differences between male
and female brains. The neuroscience that we read about in magazines, newspaper
articles, books, and sometimes even scientific journals increasingly tells a
tale of two brains, and the result is more often than not a validation of the
status quo.
I do understand that IF there are indeed morphological differences in the brains between the sexes it could be used for discrimination. I do not discount that. At the very least, the brains are exposed to different hormonal mixtures, and this could factor dramatically in how we process information. I still believe these differences are probably a factor, perhaps even a significant factor in the question of god belief.

Last edited by NOTaTHEIST; 09-12-2013 at 12:37 AM..
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:03 AM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
Reputation: 105
Here's another really good article that strongly suggests actual morphological differences.

HowStuffWorks "Male and Female Brain Structure"


Quote:
As we've said, men use gray matter, and women use white, but they're also
accessing different sections of the brain for the same task. In one study, men
and women were asked to sound out different words. Men relied on just one small
area on the left side of the brain to complete the task, while the majority of
women used areas in both sides of the brain
The more I read the more I become convinced there's probably some degree of sexually innate biological difference involved in the question of god belief.

Quote:
However, both men and women sounded out the words equally well, indicating
that there is more than one way for the brain to arrive at the same result. For
example, while women get stuck with a bad reputation for reading maps, it may
just be that they orient to landmarks differently. And as for intelligence,
average IQ scores are the same for both men and women
As I've already stated, I do not find that god belief is a simply factor of raw intelligence. High intelligence and low intelligence alike come to god belief. While a person with a low intelligence may perhaps be more susceptible (this seems likely), I'm convinced god belief is mostly arrived at for emotional reasons and not because the person has been rationally convinced to believe.

Last edited by NOTaTHEIST; 09-12-2013 at 01:52 AM..
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:41 AM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
Reputation: 105
This is an exceptional article on the subject...

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-men-and-women

Quote:
Brizendine goes on to say, “The fear of discrimination based on difference runs deep, and for
many years assumptions about sex differences went scientifically unexamined for
fear that women wouldn’t be able to claim equality with men. But pretending that
women and men are the same, while doing a disservice to both men and women,
ultimately hurts women. Perpetuating the myth of the male norm means ignoring
women’s real, biological differences in severity, susceptibility and treatment
of disease.
The bolded part seems to confirm my suspicion about cultural norms when it comes to scientifically examining this issue. The entire article is really good. I'd highly recommend it.

Quote:
It also ignores the different ways that they process thoughts and therefore
perceive what is important
Bingo! Brizendine wins a prize.


Edit:
Quote:
Yet, I find myself sometimes experiencing a curious anxiety when I point out
sex and gender differences between women and men. The way men
and women listen and talk is just one example. I can get even more anxious when
I imply that men process emotions differently and they respond to feelings in a
way that can seem foreign to us women.
I might add that a women is writing this article.

Last edited by NOTaTHEIST; 09-12-2013 at 02:16 AM..
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:05 AM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
Reputation: 105
I find this interesting...

When Your Child's New Friend is Imaginary | AboutOurKids.org

Quote:
At a younger age imaginary friends were more likely to be based on a physical
object, such as a stuffed animal, more girls than boys were likely to have
imaginary friends, and parents were more likely to know about the imaginary
friend.

Sorry about the link spam... I got on a roll and found it all interesting. Time to enjoy a glass of rum and read my book.
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