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Old 09-05-2013, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Western NC
651 posts, read 1,277,060 times
Reputation: 498

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post

If there are studies that indicate my above assumption is wrong I would love to have you list them here so I can educate myself more on this issue. If my assumption is correct, then there's little I can do to change this innate trait. If correct, I suppose not telling the truth would be the only way to accomplish this and that would only be if I really cared about the "atheist community", which I'm not sure I actually do.
How about you provide studies to back up your 'assumptions'? Read about gender essentialism if you want to know more. Really, it's not my job to educate you. If you really care about finding out if your 'assumptions' are correct you will do your homework. If not, you'll continue sounding ignorant and sexist. I'm reminded of creationists barging into a discussion about evolution with their inane debunked creationists talking points. The rest of us, that have argued these same talking points too many times to count, roll our eyes. Some might feel like taking on the job of education, others don't. Honestly, it's not the job of the marginalized to take on 101 level education of each and every privileged person that demands it.
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:12 PM
 
354 posts, read 245,947 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree
I tend to doubt that there are more male atheists than female.
Even without the polls, I'd strongly suspect the opposite. We're talking about belief here, which is a tricky thing to nail down as people tend to be untruthful about their beliefs, especially ones concerning gods.

Quote:
The vast majority of atheists just don't care to proclaim their religious or anti-religious views and therefore don't get counted in any statistics.
Which would probably be equally represented, and would not be an indicator either way.

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You don't have to join anything to be an atheist.
... and is totally awesome

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I certainly don't subscribe to the "women are more emotional" viewpoint
Not "more" emotional. I'm suggesting emotion is involved differently in the sexes. Brain studies seem to indicate this is true.

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Let's not forget that the president of the American Atheists was a woman and that Madelyn Murray O'Hare, a very famous atheist, was quite a mover and shaker.
As cool as this is, it does not change my opinion. There are certainly women atheists, that I do not discount. However, just because there were two notable ones should not factor into the equation.
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Vernon, British Columbia
3,020 posts, read 2,697,928 times
Reputation: 2132
If the assumption that sexism is driving women away from atheism, then surely we wouldn't see more women than men going to church... that is unless atheists are more sexist than theists which I highly doubt.

The bitching and moaning over sexism probably drives more people away than the actual incidences of sexism itself.
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:35 PM
 
354 posts, read 245,947 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maia160 View Post
How about you provide studies to back up your 'assumptions'?
I did post some brain studies earlier in the tread. The one I found most telling was the one that suggested men do not involve emotion on the side of the brain responsible for speech, while women do.

So I did a little more research and can confirm that right hemisphere brain function is responsible for both speech and cognition. Males do not involved emotion on this side of the brain, while women do. I can't do anything to change this fact, unless the fact is wrong. Can you provide information that contradicts this?

Edit: I read this wrong... Left side is responsible for speech and right side is responsible for cognition. Not sure how exactly this would relate to my hypothesis. It does not change the fact that women are whole brain emotional, while men are not.

Here's the link... http://www.asha.org/public/speech/di...rainDamage.htm

Quote:
Read about gender essentialism if you want to know more.
Ok, I did. I understand there's discrimination in our world and innate differences are often the source of this. This doesn't change my mind on the core issue here.

Quote:
Really, it's not my job to educate you. If you really care about finding out if
your 'assumptions' are correct you will do your homework.
First I made an assumption based upon the survey listed in this thread, then I did search for some research to back up this assumption. Perhaps I should say I do not believe this trait (if true) is the ONLY cause of the difference. It would certainly be one of many.

Quote:
If not, you'll continue sounding ignorant and sexist.
Guess I'll just have to live with that. It seems I don't know how to express these ideas without sounding that way.

Last edited by NOTaTHEIST; 09-05-2013 at 05:36 PM..
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:55 PM
 
354 posts, read 245,947 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacierx View Post
If the assumption that sexism is driving women away from atheism, then surely we wouldn't see more women than men going to church... that is unless atheists are more sexist than theists which I highly doubt.

The bitching and moaning over sexism probably drives more people away than the actual incidences of sexism itself.
Great point. Women do attend church at a higher rate than men. Religion as a whole has been very sexist for a very long time. I would say, from what I've seen, the atheist movement is less sexist than religion overall, perhaps much less.
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:28 PM
 
354 posts, read 245,947 times
Reputation: 105
This is what I posted back on page 5. The link to the study is listed there.

Quote:
Male oriented brains, hardly express feelings. It is due to the use of the
right hemisphere only. Male brains separate language, in the left, and emotions
in the right, while the female’s emotions are in both hemispheres. It helps
explain why the male brain has a hard time expressing its feelings
Edit: It's consistent. I was again reading it wrong. Deleted the confusion.

Last edited by NOTaTHEIST; 09-05-2013 at 05:44 PM..
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,089,205 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
I tend to doubt that there are more male atheists than female. The vast majority of atheists just don't care to proclaim their religious or anti-religious views and therefore don't get counted in any statistics. You don't have to join anything to be an atheist.
I have said all along that female atheists are there, they just don't self-identify. The question of this thread is, why is that? I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that if you had a crystal ball and could bypass self identification and labels, and see whether each person on earth believes in any kind of god or not, men and women would be roughly equally represented as non-god-believers. The question is why are men more willing to explicitly and publicly embrace that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
I certainly don't subscribe to the "women are more emotional" viewpoint.
I don't either, but they certainly process the world differently and this involves differences in how emotions are managed. We'd be fools to pretend there's no difference; we'd also be fools to pretend that women are somehow limited or inferior to men because of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Let's not forget that the president of the American Atheists was a woman and that Madelyn Murray O'Hare, a very famous atheist, was quite a mover and shaker.
She didn't impress me back in the day, she appeared to be rather troubled and erratic. I haven't really changed that assessment. That wasn't because of her gender, however, I'd say the same thing if she had been a man. Also, American Atheists was, and is, a very small organization to which most atheists -- even self-identified ones -- don't belong. Google them and compare their membership to the number of atheists in the US.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Vernon, British Columbia
3,020 posts, read 2,697,928 times
Reputation: 2132
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
The question is why are men more willing to explicitly and publicly embrace that?
For the same reason women are more willing to explicitly and publicly embrace religion... because there are more of them. It's a pretty simple math problem really. If you have two groups of people that are fairly evenly divided, say men and women, and then you find that one of these groups is over represented in the religious community then they will by simply mathematics be underrepresented in the non-religious community. 1+1 does equal 2.
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,089,205 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacierx View Post
For the same reason women are more willing to explicitly and publicly embrace religion... because there are more of them. It's a pretty simple math problem really. If you have two groups of people that are fairly evenly divided, say men and women, and then you find that one of these groups is over represented in the religious community then they will by simply mathematics be underrepresented in the non-religious community. 1+1 does equal 2.
That is one possible explanation, but people have multiple motivations and goals for being involved with religion (or the choice to be areligious, for that matter).

Religion provides a number of things that are independent of its ideology. A sense of local community being one of them. It is possible for people to value (for example) the social aspects of church / synagogue / mosque / whatever, without even having an opinion about the theology / dogma that gave rise to it. Indeed, religious fundamentalists bemoan this very phenomenon. And I know people, mostly extroverts, for whom their church is a very important social anchor and their thinking about the doctrine is hazy to the extent they think about it at all.

So it's a far more nuanced question than just whether any random person is a member of a church or not, or what they are willing to publicly self-identity with or label themselves as.

I tend to assume that since women have brains with which they think, just as men do, that the percentage of unbelievers who are women vs men should hover somewhere not too far from 50/50, yet you don't see that just from looking at self-declared atheists. So my hypothesis, which is testable, is that women are disproportionately closeted unbelievers, and many of those are no doubt closeted in churches. Also, I suspect women are averse to the label "Atheist" more than men and might not accept that label even though it's functionally true.

My wife is such a woman. She isn't comfortable with "Atheist" and yet if you question her in a way that doesn't maneuver her into accepting that appellation, she will freely admit that she does not now, nor has she ever, believed in any god(s). I also note that it's a big deal for her to throw in the agnostic qualifier that she is "open to the possibility" of god(s) despite seeing no evidence. It's important to her not to be seen as closed-minded. (I feel the same as she, but don't really give a fig if I'm seen as closed-minded. I see that as someone else's problem and not my job to make them comfortable. And I see it as going without saying that if I ever saw actual evidence of god, I'd form hypotheses about god and investigate accordingly).

Heck, atheists and agnostics argue all the time on what the correct definitions of those words even are, and whether or not they are on a continuum together and/or are mutually exclusive. So it's inherently tricky to classify people according to how THEY define and use those words. You have to ask them questions in a way that get at their actual (un)belief independent of how they present themselves to the world at large.

Put another way, your observations are correct but you're asking the wrong questions IMO if you really want to get at how and why women process and deal with unbelief.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Vernon, British Columbia
3,020 posts, read 2,697,928 times
Reputation: 2132
As I've stated before, the science says that women are more religious than men. Nothing wrong with that, or with disagree without the science. We all do it from time to time.
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