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Old 08-10-2013, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,132 posts, read 2,788,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Not to people, but the question of "Do you believe a god exists?" is a binary one. It is yes, or no.
My answer is "C" ....maybe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Gotcha! So in the 2 axis terminology, you would be an agnostic theist. You appear to have a more deistic or maybe pantheistic bent and less of a traditional religious one.

I get frustrated that so much of the nitpicking gets in the way, because ultimately your vision for a good world and mine are probably not very far apart. I am an agnostic atheist, in that I recognize that the existence of a god may be unknowable, but I don't think the evidence is very strong for one, so I don't believe in one. But, I don't want to eradicate religion or spirituality. I don't want to be sheltered from all religious references or other people's faith. I just want a secular society where my unbelief is tolerated as equally as other's beliefs.

-NoCapo

P.S. I like Christmas too...



I look at it this way:

Science has proved that the cosmos is so unimaginably huge that the odds are incredibly small that we are alone in the Universe.

And people who see this yet still do not believe that life exists somewhere else besides Earth can point to the fact that there is no proof of life elsewhere....and they are right.....
There is no proof yet.
But they still are purposely living with their heads in the sand.

Even if science has not proven to anyone's satisfaction that life does indeed exist elsewhere, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of it.....it's just a matter of sheer numbers.

These things I list....Karma, Love, the infinite nature of the Universe etc, are the sheer numbers of what makes me think think that the odds are in favor of something higher than myself out there, and also what makes me sure that I have no clue what that may be.

Last edited by FatBob96; 08-10-2013 at 02:47 PM..
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I look at it this way:

Science has proved that the cosmos is so unimaginably huge that the odds are incredibly small that we are alone in the Universe.

And people who see this yet still do not believe that life exists somewhere else besides Earth can point to the fact that there is no proof of life elsewhere....and they are right.....
There is no proof yet.
But they still are purposely living with their heads in the sand.
Even if science has not proven to anyone's satisfaction that life does indeed exist elsewhere, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of it.....it's just a matter of sheer numbers.
No. Yet again we have a misunderstanding of the position. We agree that it is statistically very likely that some life exists apart from on earth. But, until there is some proof, we cannot with correct logic believe that it is so. That is going beyond what is logically correct to wishful thinking.

Quote:
These things I list....Karma, Love, the infinite nature of the Universe etc, are the sheer numbers of what makes me think think that the odds are in favor of something higher than myself out there, and also what makes me sure that I have no clue what that may be.
Similarly, Karma - which may be a human delusion as much as anything else, Love, which is an assemblage of instincts, duties and preferences given an almost independent identity by rather inadequate thinking and sheer size ..I don't know whether it is a sort of terror of immensity or the rather cunning use of it as a pretext - none of that is the slightest evidence for the 'something greater' that I am sure you have in mind.

I'm not saying that there is no such thing. I'm saying that we cannot know and what you present as a persuasive case is utterly inadequate.

Ok, ok. suppose I say I am persuaded that 'Something Greater' exists out there. Just what do you expect me to do? Give up opposing man - made religion and its claim to authority? Pray to this thing? From what you say, you don't do that yourself. Just what is it you hope to achieve other that trying to discredit atheists and atheism with this rather poor and diffuse argument?

Why? Do you just misunderstand us, or have you been taught to despise us or what? I want to understand what it is you seem to hate about us so much.
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Old 08-10-2013, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
No. Yet again we have a misunderstanding of the position. We agree that it is statistically very likely that some life exists apart from on earth. But, until there is some proof, we cannot with correct logic believe that it is so. That is going beyond what is logically correct to wishful thinking.

Similarly, Karma - which may be a human delusion as much as anything else, Love, which is an assemblage of instincts, duties and preferences given an almost independent identity by rather inadequate thinking and sheer size ..I don't know whether it is a sort of terror of immensity or the rather cunning use of it as a pretext - none of that is the slightest evidence for the 'something greater' that I am sure you have in mind.

I'm not saying that there is no such thing. I'm saying that we cannot know and what you present as a persuasive case is utterly inadequate.

Ok, ok. suppose I say I am persuaded that 'Something Greater' exists out there. Just what do you expect me to do? Give up opposing man - made religion and its claim to authority? Pray to this thing? From what you say, you don't do that yourself. Just what is it you hope to achieve other that trying to discredit atheists and atheism with this rather poor and diffuse argument?

Why? Do you just misunderstand us, or have you been taught to despise us or what? I want to understand what it is you seem to hate about us so much.
You misunderstand me.
I don't expect you to do anything.
I do not hate Atheists.

I "hate" extremists on both ends of the spectrum that are so obsessed with their beliefs or non belief that they feel it necessary to force everyone else to accomodate their views at the expense of everyone else's.
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Old 08-10-2013, 03:49 PM
 
Location: In exile
534 posts, read 713,426 times
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[quote=Dooleys1300;30803716]I'm possibly the worlds biggest Agnostic, so I guess it's easy for me to see both sides of the equation of whether or not to believe in God (any God, not just Christian).

To me, being Agnostic means that I am aware of what a small, insignificant creature that I am in the scope of space and time and that it would be incredibly presumptuous and arrogant of me to have an attitude that there is absolutely no higher power than myself in all the cosmos.
On the other hand, every religion of the world thinks that their view is the only right one and that everyone else on the planet is doomed, dammed or whatever.

So both of the extreme views on either side are just as arrogant and ignorant as the other....

Now, I can understand that the devout are motivated by their faith, but I've always wondered what motivates hardcore type Atheists to be so adamant in demanding a lack of exposure to any religious references or symbols in their daily lives.
What I'm talking about here are the Freedom From Religion Foundation types who want to sue somebody every time a nativity scene goes up at Christmas time and lobbying to get "in God we trust" removed from currency etc.

Do you really have nothing better to do?

Because to me, you are just as bad as the morons from the Westboro Baptist Church.[/QUOTE\

why should "in god we trust" be on currency?
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Old 08-10-2013, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
12,201 posts, read 10,429,763 times
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When you consider for the majority, if not all, its history, religion has been used to murder/kill, torture, rape, molest, steal, enslave and any other crime against humanity one can image, without impunity, backed by a sense of morality and "divine" righteousness as sanctioned by the "creator of all things", you realize one cannot be anything but an atheist....with agnosticism being nothing but a cheap cop-out.
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Old 08-10-2013, 06:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
Maybe passion is not the right word, call it enthusiasm or just certainty if you like......
But in order for someone to officially call themselves Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever, they have to have a some degree of certainty in their beliefs....otherwise they would not qualify as beliefs would they?

Just as an Atheist (using the common definition of someone who does not believe in a higher power of any kind) has to have a degree of certainty in their non belief.

So, you do not have to wear a badge calling yourself an Atheist, because I would assume that the thought and reasoning you have put into your conclusion is close enough to what I call passion to explain what I meant by that statement.

Agnostics, as I define them (and many define themselves) have not the certainty in either direction of belief or nonbelief to call themselves anything other than undecided (Agnostic).
Theism and atheism are defined by the presence of a belief in god (theism) and the absence of a belief in god (atheism). The strength of a belief, the amount of doubt or certainty, or the allowance for possibilities all fall outside of these definitions.

Sure, someone who actually HAS a belief, can have a degree of certainty about it. But, if someone does not have a belief, then what is this certainty you are referring to?
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Old 08-10-2013, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural510 View Post
When you consider for the majority, if not all, its history, religion has been used to murder/kill, torture, rape, molest, steal, enslave and any other crime against humanity one can image, without impunity, backed by a sense of morality and "divine" righteousness as sanctioned by the "creator of all things", you realize one cannot be anything but an atheist....with agnosticism being nothing but a cheap cop-out.

I have already expressed my disdain for organized religion in general .
I just don't hold the same disdain for all of the people who believe in it or all it's culture and traditions.
There is quite a difference between organized religion and a sense of believing in the possible existence of some form of higher power.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:03 PM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,026,388 times
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Dooley,

Let me ask a question (or two):

1)Do you hold the belief that I am wearing a yellow shirt?
2)Do you hold the belief that I am not wearing a yellow shirt?

Yes or No?

I understand that you wouldn't "know" whether or not I am wearing one, so I am not asking if (you know) I am in fact wearing one. Despite not knowing, do you hold the belief that I am or am not wearing a yellow shirt. ("I don't know" is not a possible answer).

I'm guessing that you probably would answer "no" to both questions. You would have no reason to hold either belief, because I have not provided you with any convincing evidence either way. Not holding one belief does not mean that you must therefore hold the opposite belief. In other words, not holding the belief that I am wearing a yellow shirt (#1) does not mean you must therefore hold the belief that I am not wearing a yellow shirt. It is the lack of belief re: question 1 that alone would define you as an "a-yellowshirtist", not a possible belief re: question 2.

In other words, if I asked the following questions:

1)Do you hold the belief that god exists?
2)Do you hold the belief that god does not exist?

The majority of atheists would answer no to both of these questions as well. Lacking the first belief does not mean you must therefore hold the opposite belief (#2) that god does not exist. However, just answering "no" to question 1 defines one as an atheist.
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Old 08-10-2013, 08:23 PM
 
39,202 posts, read 10,880,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
You misunderstand me.
I don't expect you to do anything.
I do not hate Atheists.

I "hate" extremists on both ends of the spectrum that are so obsessed with their beliefs or non belief that they feel it necessary to force everyone else to accomodate their views at the expense of everyone else's.
Yes, you explained that already but what has that to do with 'Something Greater' out there or Karma and Love? The beef of the atheists you regard as extremists is a beef with organized religion and its influence.

As I said, even if we thought that made a case, we would still have that same beef with organized religion.

I can see that those who believe there is a God are willing to tolerate religious organizations, but if you hate the extremists, what are you doing about it?

Why come and attack us, because we, as active militants, are the 'extremists' that you speak of?
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Old 08-10-2013, 09:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I do not view my indecision as being the same as having no belief at all......and that is something for me to define......not any theological scholar, not Webster's dictionary and certainly not you.
You can certainly define it however you like, but you are not allowed to call it agnosticism or a pogo stick, without being corrected, because it is neither.
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