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Old 08-11-2013, 12:08 PM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,782,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post

Because to me, you are just as bad as the morons from the Westboro Baptist Church.
Just to be clear exactly what actions are you referring to that are as bad as showing up at funerals and screaming to the loved ones of the deceased that they deserved to die and it was god's punishment?
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,118 posts, read 2,782,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Your actions don't match your words. Certainly you are trying to convince us that your definitions are correct and ours are wrong, by bashing us and trying to separate yourself from us by redefining words. You can't hold a candle against some of the intellectuals on this forum (myself not included), and this seems to intimidate you. Maybe you'd do better by finding new words to redefine yourself instead of redefining the words you'd like to define yourself with.
Exactly what have I said that makes you think I'm trying to convince you that my definitions are right and that yours are wrong? I never bashed all Atheists, I am merely defending my opinions as is my right to do.

I do not purport to be any kind of intellectual giant.....I am admittedly just an "average Joe"

However I don't see some of those who have responded to me with page long novelette responses as having any great intellectual capacity over me either.
They simply have a more long winded brand of digital fortitude than I do.

When you address people from a top a high horse you should expect to get some dung flung back at you.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,118 posts, read 2,782,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manderly6 View Post
Just to be clear exactly what actions are you referring to that are as bad as showing up at funerals and screaming to the loved ones of the deceased that they deserved to die and it was god's punishment?
At this point in an 18 page long thread, suffice to say that I am talking about the actions of some select activists that are designed to ruin everyone's dinner because they're on a self imposed diet.
It just so happens that many of them happen to be Atheists activists.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:28 PM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,782,292 times
Reputation: 16147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
At this point in an 18 page long thread, suffice to say that I am talking about the actions of some select activists that are designed to ruin everyone's dinner because they're on a self imposed diet.
It just so happens that many of them happen to be Atheists activists.
And I am asking you specifically which actions you are talking about? Let's assume your child/parent/sibling has died. You are at the funeral and Westboro shows up doing what they do. Now what actions are you referring to that would equate to that?
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,118 posts, read 2,782,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
You might still be tired. Public view is a non issue, even for those atheist devils at the FFRF, Public funding and government endorsement, those are an issue and are what we are talking about, not public display. Believers can still wear their religious jewelry, have their nativities, their menorahs, whatever. Just not at city hall, and not at the taxpayer's expense.


Again to be fair, I looked at the active FFRF cases and did a quick google. Usually the "happy holidays" thing is not a lawsuit, it is an employer directive to try to keep a culturally diverse group of people in the stores and buying stuff. None of this has anything to do with your original scapegoat, the FFRF, and very little can be laid at the feet of "atheists"



As a matter of fact, the "PC" crowd has a big problem with "hardcore atheists", because they do call down other religions! There was a huge salon article a while back lambasting folks like Dawkins and Hitches for their harsh criticism of Islam. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a notable figure, braving death threats and violence to speak out against the oppression of women in the name of Islam in her home country of Somalia. Political Atheist activism is not about being "mean" to Christians, it is about ensuring that no religious group is able to abuse the law and the coercive power of government!




I quite agree with everything you have here. If any one was suing to be free of Christmas trees, I would roll my eyes and think that was kind of dumb.

It is a good thing that that is not generally what is going on. Religious symbols like crosses, National days of prayer, public funding of religious organizations, sectarian religious education in public schools, religious discrimination, these are the issues being litigated. These are important issues, and while they are certainly more trivial than Somalian female genital mutilation, that doesn't mean that should not and cannot be addressed.

To be honest the two things that both me the most here is your reliance on strawmen, and the conflation of political action with atheism itself.
You really seem to be clutching to a caricature of atheism, that we are trying to destroy religion, that we hate Christianity (and Christianity only) that we are somehow to be conflated with politically correct "liberals" (Never read much Hitchens, have you? ) This is what I thought when I was a Christian. It was what was fed to me by Focus on the Family, the ACLJ, the HSLDA, and other politically active Christian organizations. It is what was drilled into my head for two weeks a Summit ministries. It is quite frankly, untrue. Atheist come in all flavors. At the core is only the simple lack of belief in a god or gods. Not saying you are, but if you sources for understanding atheism are coming from politcally right or religious sources, please take the time to look further. The strawman you are attacking is the kind you normally see at WorldNetDaily, Fox News, or religious groups. It just isn't accurate.

The second thing is that you seem to equate political activism with some sort of "fundamentalist" atheism. It really doesn't have anything to do with it. Unlike religion, with is differing rules, and varying degrees of observance, atheism is simple. Just unbelief. There is no hardcore unbelief or liberal unbelief, or charismatic unbelief. Just unbelief. The political and social activism of groups like FFRF and American Atheists are because these individuals are personality-wise campaigners and crusader, folk who want to rally behind a cause. Has nothing to do with being a "hardcore" atheist. Us libertarian-ish non-joiner atheists have exactly the same atheism, we just don't like politics. There just isn't such a thing as "hardcore" or "fundamentalist" atheism. Its all the same thing, simple unbelief.

-NoCapo
NoCapo......

That response was among the few that rate as the type that I was after in providing me with some insight.
Out of all the people who have responded I think you may be they only one who consistently understands what I'm saying even when you don't agreed with it.
So I must give a nod of respect for your opinions even when I do not agree with them.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,118 posts, read 2,782,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manderly6 View Post
And I am asking you specifically which actions you are talking about? Let's assume your child/parent/sibling has died. You are at the funeral and Westboro shows up doing what they do. Now what actions are you referring to that would equate to that?
I will take this opportunity to admit that equating them with the Westboro Baptist types may have been a bit over the top.

But if you had read the entire thread you would know that this thread was originally posted in the Politics and Other Controversies forum....A place where experience has taught me to fully expect to be met with more than a few less thoughtful and more combative replies....... but the moderators made me move it here.

So yes, I do have some regrets about not re wording the original post to better fit this forum.

Other than that I have explained my opinions ad nauseum over the last 18 pages.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:24 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,251,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
NoCapo......

That response was among the few that rate as the type that I was after in providing me with some insight.
Out of all the people who have responded I think you may be they only one who consistently understands what I'm saying even when you don't agreed with it.
So I must give a nod of respect for your opinions even when I do not agree with them.

Well, to be honest sometime us unbelievers do get a bit combative. For a long time (centuries, we are talking) our lack of belief has been equated with evil, with amorality, with demonic inspiration. Even today there are a number of State constitutions that forbid atheists from holding office. While it is not legally enforceable, it is still a powerful statement. Can you imagine if the state of Alabama had a stature forbidding black men from holding office, even if it were not legally enforceable?

The stereotypes are not from atheists being combative, or from using legal tools to prevent the encroachment of religion into government. When the ink was barely dry on the Constitution, Tomas Paine was being marginalized and vilified as an atheist ( he wasn't, but it was the worst insult they could throw at him). This demonization goes back a lot further, and didn't go away when we stayed under the radar to avoid confrontation and persecution for centuries. Even doing its most prominent time in the US, with orators like Ingersoll, we were still the object of scorn and suspicion. Clearly, that tactic has not worked, so now we are trying a different way, standing up for our rights, and demanding that the religious be held to the ideals they exercise to protect their own free expression. Our unbelief deserves the same treatment.

But again, this is a social and political stance. It doesn't change the fact that there are not degrees of atheism. It is not a faith or a dogma that can be adhered to in varying measure. It is simply unbelief, nothing more, nothing less. Like I said, before, I don't know where you get your concepts of non-believers, but I would suggest you might want to get your hands on Humanist magazine or something like that and use it as a window to how we think and what we are concerned about, instead of just embracing the stereotypes of the religious. Even some of the threads here, in this sort of by unbelievers, for unbelievers section might give you a bit of perspective that is different...

-NoCapo
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:26 PM
 
12,540 posts, read 12,531,731 times
Reputation: 28901
Well, hey, if people want to associate their deity with money to the point where they want to mix the two, that goes to show you what their beliefs are really about, doesn't it? Me, I want NO gods in my government, period. If that makes me hardcore, so be it.
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:34 PM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,732,866 times
Reputation: 1253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
Exactly what have I said that makes you think I'm trying to convince you that my definitions are right and that yours are wrong? I never bashed all Atheists, I am merely defending my opinions as is my right to do.

I do not purport to be any kind of intellectual giant.....I am admittedly just an "average Joe"

However I don't see some of those who have responded to me with page long novelette responses as having any great intellectual capacity over me either.
They simply have a more long winded brand of digital fortitude than I do.

When you address people from a top a high horse you should expect to get some dung flung back at you.
This statement for example, using the ad populum argument,

"But I do know that 99% of the people I speak to who themselves Agnostic are very comfortable using my definitions as previously stated."

Those who have adequately and repeatedly explained the definitions of the words you are using are not only intellectual superiors, but obviously have a better handle on the English language and the definitions of words. I suggest you read, heed, and learn from them. I have.
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:07 PM
 
Location: California
30,702 posts, read 33,484,787 times
Reputation: 26125
SOME of them are "atheist activists". But activists are activists, whatever they are getting behind is going to come off a little weird.

Sorry activists. There are those who fight for a cause and then there are those who get OCD over things because they can't help themselves. They embarrass every group, no one is immune.
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