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Old 08-11-2013, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh area
9,918 posts, read 20,564,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I draw the line further into the second part, giving a lot of leeway into what I consider "Free Exercise".
A little too much for me, in that it seems to encroach upon the establishment issue. For example, in your very earliest post you brought up "In God We Trust" on money. Now I know one can argue that this doesn't establish a specific organized religion, but hey, you damn well better be some kind of theist. It establishes theism. Over the line. I'm really not sure why this doesn't trip your establishment meter if you are that adamant about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I am quite adamant about the Establishment clause, the government has no business telling me or anyone else what, if any religion to follow. However I do not subscribe to the notion that putting a Christmas tree on public property is forcing me to be Christian or to follow Christian dogma.
I don't think I've seen too much if any going after Christmas trees. As I mentioned earlier, a Christmas tree if you dig into it is hardly Christian in nature anyway. It's a pagan tradition co-opted and/or just continued through the centuries. If I remember right it predates Jesus anyway at least in the areas that had it as tradition (not where Jesus was, but in parts of Europe perhaps, going by memory not looking up so might have details wrong).

The argument is often over Jesus in the manger scenes though. I find that to be a little more blatant. A Christmas tree is very secular even if the holiday's NAME has some religious origin. (The timing does not; it is timed to the solstice and I think there is some evidence that early Christians picked this timing to celebrate in order to co-opt that existing timing.) A nativity scene is entirely religious.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,128 posts, read 2,786,802 times
Reputation: 4390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post

Those who have adequately and repeatedly explained the definitions of the words you are using are not only intellectual superiors, but obviously have a better handle on the English language and the definitions of words. I suggest you read, heed, and learn from them. I have.
ROFLMAO....yeah, good luck w/that.

Why are you so hung up on the definitions??
Just because I point out that many people use my definitions rather than yours and the Oh so superior intellectuals you claim this forum is overflowing with does not mean I'm trying to talk you into believing my definitions.
Personally I could not care less what you choose to believe, how you define those beliefs or how you choose to reach that conclusion.

You repeatedly make the claim of superior intellect for yourselves and you wonder why the rest of the world thinks you're arrogant? LOL

Here, let me amuse you a bit more with some of my faulty logic:

If man chooses not to believe in any power higher than himself then he is purposely rejecting a bit of humility and it is not an unreasonable stretch of the imagination that with less humility comes more arrogance because he is ultimately saying that he (man) is the highest possible authority on pretty much.....everything.

You can not set yourself on such a high pedestal without getting a little bit smug about it.

Last edited by FatBob96; 08-11-2013 at 09:46 PM..
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,279 posts, read 19,566,600 times
Reputation: 13054
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
This type of Atheism has become tied in with the increasingly secular nature of politics and society in general and has led to a certain degree of Christian bashing becoming a socially acceptable prejudice for many.

Many of these same people would never dream of speaking ill of Muslims for example, and would be the first to jump up and point a finger of racism at anyone who dares point out the obvious facts that most terrorists are Muslim or the way that the horrible treatment of women is considered acceptable in Muslim culture .....because the truth does not matter if it's not politically correct and pointing something like that out is a cardinal sin in the religion of Secularism.
I doubt you'll find any atheist regulars on these forums who are more sympathetic towards Muslims than they are towards Christians (to say nothing of Islamic terrorism).

However, since Christianity is by far the most widespread religion in developed western countries, that is the religion atheists here address the most.
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,128 posts, read 2,786,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I doubt you'll find any atheist regulars on these forums who are more sympathetic towards Muslims than they are towards Christians (to say nothing of Islamic terrorism).

However, since Christianity is by far the most widespread religion in developed western countries, that is the religion atheists here address the most.
I don't doubt that, I was talking about the more politically secular types of Atheists that probably don't frequent this type of forum much.
It does not take too much attention to current events (Boston bomber on the cover of Rolling Stone) to know that for some reason many of them seem to embrace Muslim culture, purposely ignoring the violence that permeates it in some misguided quest for diversity for diversity's sake.
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:32 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I don't doubt that, I was talking about the more politically secular types of Atheists that probably don't frequent this type of forum much.
It does not take too much attention to current events (Boston bomber on the cover of Rolling Stone) to know that for some reason many of them seem to embrace Muslim culture, purposely ignoring the violence that permeates it in some misguided quest for diversity for diversity's sake.
Wait a minute! You are citing Rolling Stone as an example of politically active Atheists?!?! Come on, you are just reaching now...

Like I mentioned before, most of the heavy hitters in modern atheism (Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, and posthumously, Hitchens) are highly critical of Islam, just as they are all Theistic belief, particularly organized religions. There a quite a few like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ibn Warrag, and Salman Rushdie who take great risks to try to publicly discuss the problems with Islam from the perspective of former Muslims.

Generally speaking us Atheists understand that all religious organization can be misused and as such it all needs to be divorced from politics, and needs to be carefully examined regarding its influence on culture. That goes for Islam as much as it goes Christianity, or Judaism, or Hinduism, or even Buddhism. Us "hardcore" atheists are not the ones giving Islam a pass...

-NoCapo
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:52 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,128 posts, read 2,786,802 times
Reputation: 4390
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Wait a minute! You are citing Rolling Stone as an example of politically active Atheists?!?! Come on, you are just reaching now...

Like I mentioned before, most of the heavy hitters in modern atheism (Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, and posthumously, Hitchens) are highly critical of Islam, just as they are all Theistic belief, particularly organized religions. There a quite a few like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ibn Warrag, and Salman Rushdie who take great risks to try to publicly discuss the problems with Islam from the perspective of former Muslims.

Generally speaking us Atheists understand that all religious organization can be misused and as such it all needs to be divorced from politics, and needs to be carefully examined regarding its influence on culture. That goes for Islam as much as it goes Christianity, or Judaism, or Hinduism, or even Buddhism. Us "hardcore" atheists are not the ones giving Islam a pass...

-NoCapo

No, I am not saying that I think this is a direct result of politically active Atheists, however I am using it as an example of how Secularism has crept into modern culture and politics.

I am aware that you probably don't like the connection of Secular activist culture with Atheism because of the reasons you have already stated, but you can not deny that a connection exists..... the thing Secular activists and Atheists activists have in common is their mutual disdain for Christianity and political/social Conservative ideology.

Do I know that the editor who made the decision to glorify the bomber on the cover, making him look like some kind of Jim Morrison teen idol is an Atheist???

No, I do not.....But I'd be willing to bet that he's not a member of the Christian book of the month club either. And the thing is, I would also hazard a guess that he does not consider his views radical or himself an activist, it's just hip to be Secular these days and the more Secular you are the cooler it is.

Last edited by FatBob96; 08-12-2013 at 06:27 AM..
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:41 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
No, I am not saying that I think this is a direct result of politically active Atheists, however I am using it as an example of how Secularism has crept into modern culture and politics.

I am aware that you probably don't like the connection of Secular activist culture with Atheism because of the reasons you have already stated, but you can not deny that a connection exists..... the thing Secular activists and Atheists activists have in common is their mutual disdain for Christianity.

Do I know that the editor who made the decision to glorify the bomber on the cover, making him look like some kind of Jim Morrison teen idol is an Atheist???

No, I do not.....But I'd be willing to bet that he's not a member of the Christian book of the month club either. And the thing is, I would also hazard a guess that he does not consider his views radical or himself an activist, it's just hip to be Secular these days and the more Secular you are the cooler it is.
For someone who is not a part of organized Christianity, you sure do regurgitate the propaganda. Like I mentioned before, do some reading on atheism, secular humanism, and such from within those groups to get a a different perspective. It really will make us a lot less scary that relying on the views of organized religion.

Secularism isn't a bad thing. It is simply maintaining a society and government that is based on common principles rooted in our common humanity, instead of trying to shape society based on our religious differences. Secularism has literally nothing to do with a Rolling Stone editor pushing the line of what the public will tolerate in an attempt to be "hipper than thou" and sell units to his target audience.

In addition Atheism is not the root of secularism. Secularism is why and how we have religious freedom in this country. There and Secularists of all religious stripes who understand that a society dominated by one religious outlook is one that has a tendency to stifle the religious freedoms of others. Americans Unided for Separation of Church and State is run by a Christian minister. It is not just us Atheists who understand the value of a secular culture and government.

I guess I am curious why you view secularism as a bad thing? You are not a part of organized religion, why do you feel that the religious values of any particular group should dominate? And clearly you are not a fan of Islam, on what basis do you think their non-secular values should not be the ones used for our society?

-NoCapo
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Chicago
3,391 posts, read 3,742,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
Objection to public displays of religion is one thing.....being so adamant about it that you feel it necessary to ruin other peoples Holidays by dragging them into court over it is another.
Oh, please! Objecting to religious displays on public property, and going to court over it if necessary, never ruined anyone's holiday. There are countless venues for religious expression other than public property, and religious people make use of them all the time. They put displays in churches, private homes, every kind of business imaginable. To compare that to picketing the funerals of dead soldiers is disgusting.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:24 AM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,734,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
For someone who is not a part of organized Christianity, you sure do regurgitate the propaganda. Like I mentioned before, do some reading on atheism, secular humanism, and such from within those groups to get a a different perspective. It really will make us a lot less scary that relying on the views of organized religion.

Secularism isn't a bad thing. It is simply maintaining a society and government that is based on common principles rooted in our common humanity, instead of trying to shape society based on our religious differences. Secularism has literally nothing to do with a Rolling Stone editor pushing the line of what the public will tolerate in an attempt to be "hipper than thou" and sell units to his target audience.

In addition Atheism is not the root of secularism. Secularism is why and how we have religious freedom in this country. There and Secularists of all religious stripes who understand that a society dominated by one religious outlook is one that has a tendency to stifle the religious freedoms of others. Americans Unided for Separation of Church and State is run by a Christian minister. It is not just us Atheists who understand the value of a secular culture and government.

I guess I am curious why you view secularism as a bad thing? You are not a part of organized religion, why do you feel that the religious values of any particular group should dominate? And clearly you are not a fan of Islam, on what basis do you think their non-secular values should not be the ones used for our society?

-NoCapo
Dooley seems more like a Jerry Falwell Christian posing as what is his misconception of an agnostic, than anything.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:32 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,114 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Dooley seems more like a Jerry Falwell Christian posing as what is his misconception of an agnostic, than anything.
That or he is in the same place I was for a while. Coming out of a Jerry Falwell type background, but not really sure how to evaluate the world outside of the religious propaganda. It took me a while to get clear of it, although my trip out of fundamentalism was slow enough that I had time to adapt.

I look back at the stuff I bought into now, and think how did I ever go along with that? The whole culture wars meme, the idea that Atheism and Secular Humanism are joined at the hip and are responsible for the moral decay of the world, stuff like that. That's why I tried to point him to some resources that will help him get a different perspective on what Atheists think, what Secularism really is, and what it means for society.

-NoCapo
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