U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-04-2013, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,352 posts, read 12,114,801 times
Reputation: 16597

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
...The intelligent believer in God- has kept his belief separate from religion...
Thank you!!

Agreed!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-04-2013, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,067 posts, read 2,771,334 times
Reputation: 4341
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevxu View Post
That statement is so preposterous, that I would suggest that you give it a bit more thought.
That statement is my opinion, you don't have to like it or agree with it and I don't need to re think it either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
For real. I have no idea if the OP is trolling or not.
Not a troll, I first put this post in the Politics and other Controversies forum but Mods locked pretty quickly, that's why it's here instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
You sound very angry and I am questioning whether you are actually an agnostic. Why does a lawsuit like getting that ridiculous motto off our money bother you so much? Personally I'd like to see it removed but I think it's a waste of time.

First bolded - That is preposterous. Now I'm almost convinced you are trolling.
If it is displayed on government funded (tax payer) land then everyones religion should be included. I never heard of anyone "forcing" anyone to take down a religious display on property one actually owns.

Second bolded - I think the "written up" part is a lie. I call BS. Now if she was told not to say it to customers and she didn't adhere to the person who writes out the paychecks then I can see him/her having a point and your wife deserves to get written up. That is called insubordination.
Maybe the business has a lot of Jewish customers and the business owner doesn't want to offend them.
Best to keep the peace. Happy holiday's include almost everyone.
Why does the statement being on money bother you so much that you feel a lawsuit is necessary to remove it?
I don't believe in ghosts but I don't start non profit foundations against ghosts in public or lawsuits to get any type of ghost stories removed from public libraries, even though there are some documentary types that purport themselves to be fact rather than fiction......the fact is I just don't have that much negative passion on the subject.
Likewise, I don't disbelieve in any God or any other Higher power to passionately go about giving a damn if the phrase is on currency to the point of starting lawsuits about it.

Call BS all you want, but the "written up" part is not a lie, this is happening more and more every year. Certainly not in every store (yet) and maybe not for one offence in every case but pointing that out is nit picking because it does happen.

I know and work with people of different faiths and levels of non faith and not one of them cares if someone says Merry Christmas to them.....Hell I had a Jewish manager once who would say it back even when people said Happy Hanukkah or even Happy Holidays to him lol.

What I'm getting at here is I don't understand how some atheists disbelief can be so passionate that they care about these things......I would think that the disbelief would cause the opposite to be true.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2013, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,857 posts, read 3,782,423 times
Reputation: 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I'm possibly the worlds biggest Agnostic, so I guess it's easy for me to see both sides of the equation of whether or not to believe in God (any God, not just Christian).

To me, being Agnostic means that I am aware of what a small, insignificant creature that I am in the scope of space and time and that it would be incredibly presumptuous and arrogant of me to have an attitude that there is absolutely no higher power than myself in all the cosmos.
On the other hand, every religion of the world thinks that their view is the only right one and that everyone else on the planet is doomed, dammed or whatever.

So both of the extreme views on either side are just as arrogant and ignorant as the other....

Now, I can understand that the devout are motivated by their faith, but I've always wondered what motivates hardcore type Atheists to be so adamant in demanding a lack of exposure to any religious references or symbols in their daily lives.
What I'm talking about here are the Freedom From Religion Foundation types who want to sue somebody every time a nativity scene goes up at Christmas time and lobbying to get "in God we trust" removed from currency etc.

Do you really have nothing better to do?

Because to me, you are just as bad as the morons from the Westboro Baptist Church.

To be honest with you, even if there were any 'hardcore' atheists hanging out on this forum (as Sizzly said at the beginning of the thread, 99% of us are not like that) I'm not sure how you expect to engage in a reasonable conversation with one of them when your opening post is to call them 'morons'. You either want to find out what motivates them or you don't. Sounds to me like you have already firmly made up your mind.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2013, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Dallas
242 posts, read 197,029 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
Why does the statement being on money bother you so much that you feel a lawsuit is necessary to remove it?
Actually most of us could care less about it being there, but the fact that it was added BY LAW in 1956 and there's this thing in the Bill of rights about "congress shall make no law" that grates on some of us a bit.

...this doesn't even take into account that it replaced "E Pluribus Unum" with includes the entire country with something that excludes a growing percentage of people who don't believe in any particular god, much less trust him.

I'd like to see it go back to the original, but it isn't something that particular bothers me (and I certainly don't find the statement in and of itself to be offensive, only the method of how we got it and the apparent ignorance of most people to acknowledge that it's pretty recent in terms of our "history").
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2013, 10:59 AM
 
16,083 posts, read 17,880,433 times
Reputation: 15867
Quote:
Originally Posted by greaemonkey View Post
Actually most of us could care less about it being there, but the fact that it was added BY LAW in 1956 and there's this thing in the Bill of rights about "congress shall make no law" that grates on some of us a bit.


History of 'In God We Trust'

Actually, it was in 1964 that it was first placed on our paper currency. The resolution happened in 1956. It was first placed on our coins in 1864, but not all coins and it disappeared from the 5 cent coin from 1883 to 1938. So its use has not been continuous.

...this doesn't even take into account that it replaced "E Pluribus Unum" with includes the entire country with something that excludes a growing percentage of people who don't believe in any particular god, much less trust him.

I'd like to see it go back to the original, but it isn't something that particular bothers me (and I certainly don't find the statement in and of itself to be offensive, only the method of how we got it and the apparent ignorance of most people to acknowledge that it's pretty recent in terms of our "history").
Interestingly, E Pluribus Unum was never controversial until lately when the religious right decided that it is unamerican.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-controversial

Quote:
E Pluribus Unum has never been considered controversial. The motto, which is Latin for "out of many, one," was adopted by the Founding Fathers in 1782 as part of the Great Seal of the United States, intended to represent the federal nature of the nation - out of many states, one country. The framers sharply disputed many issues in the formation of the nation, but E Pluribus Unum was not one of them.

In fact, as the nation's population has grown the motto has taken on a secondary meaning as well, reflecting the country's melting pot nature - out of many peoples, one American people.
Quote:
The CPC, a leading voice of religious conservatism on Capitol Hill, recently wrote a letter to President Barack Obama, chastising him for referring to the motto E Pluribus Unum.
There is a certain parallel here to the adoption of In God We Trust which did come about from letters during the Civil War, but the latin motto has been around since our country was founded and seems to me to be much more representative of our culture and beliefs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2013, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,368,316 times
Reputation: 3735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
That statement is my opinion, you don't have to like it or agree with it and I don't need to re think it either.

I don't believe in ghosts but I don't start non profit foundations against ghosts in public or lawsuits to get any type of ghost stories removed from public libraries, even though there are some documentary types that purport themselves to be fact rather than fiction......the fact is I just don't have that much negative passion on the subject.

Likewise, I don't disbelieve in any God or any other Higher power to passionately go about giving a damn if the phrase is on currency to the point of starting lawsuits about it.

What I'm getting at here is I don't understand how some atheists disbelief can be so passionate that they care about these things......I would think that the disbelief would cause the opposite to be true.
Of course, the ongoing problem is one of such over-indulgence in well-orchestrated dismissal and denouncement of atheism that it demands an equal (or better, since, after all, the logical proofs of natural and easily repeated & observable causes of events are literally always on our side, but equally and conspicuously absent on the Christian versions..) and ongoing effort on our part to discredit the massive and repetitive tsunami of lies and admonishments that arise specifically to discredit atheism, as though it were Satan's trumpet call.

Atheists are, without any rational warrant, claimed by teary-eyed or blithering and prevaricating supposedly Christian TV evangelists etc. to be the most distrusted cohort in America right now. On what basis I wonder? Well, try reading this blog, if any curious Christian readers here have the intellectual curiosity or reading & comprehension skills, plus an honestly open mind. Especially, read section 7 but don't just throw it away. It's the God's truth (in true-to-form Ameriligionese of course...).

http://www.dontfeedtheanimals.net/20...n-america.html

And why is that? Because we're truly and demonstrably not trustable? Or is it simply because that is exactly what the Christians want the gullible and trembling, illiterate mass-populace to believe? And thus to have them turn to Christianity to shore up their now-failing influence?

BTW, otherwise, all you trained-seal atheist haters, please...cite us a few cases of forced ethical chaos and virulent disruptions by us Evil™ atheists! Just list a few examples, etc. After all, one has only to check up on the percentage of dedicated Christians in jail, versus the very low percentage of atheists doing time. Oh-ohhh huh?

Educational changes, intro science classes including all the obvious proofs of Evolution, abiogenesis and long-time-scale geology, our vastly new astronomical & scientifically repeatable knowledge of the Universe (of which we're but a micro-nano and truly insignificant part of), plus the ever-expanding (oh, and thus Evil!) internet, and our kid's acceptance of any and all new-fangled technologies and communication systems have seriously eroded the voice of the church. Plus these modern kids now know, logically, that the invisible & unattainable GodHead person has not, and never will, show Himself to anyone. After all, how can a non-entity do that?

As well, if you were placed in the very unpleasant position of being obviously lied to by your evangelist parents who forced you to attend Sunday School as your mind matured in this 21st Century, what would you conclude? Just have them ignore the endless lies and deceptions that speak to all those truly troubled Christians in their own arrogant community? I doubt it! How much of said evil sentiments would you allow to be foisted off onto your plate, I wonder.

I'm betting on the more rational thinkers here and now to put such Olde Tyme Religion mandates in their proper place "](as in the opposite of what we saw in such '50s movies as Gary Cooper's "High Noon" character, walking in on the Sunday church scene, where the terrified parishioners demand protection from some stand-in person, never opting to take any responsibility or actions based on their own ethics.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
To be honest with you, even if there were any 'hardcore' atheists hanging out on this forum (as Sizzly said at the beginning of the thread, 99% of us are not like that) I'm not sure how you expect to engage in a reasonable conversation with one of them when your opening post is to call them 'morons'. You either want to find out what motivates them or you don't. Sounds to me like you have already firmly made up your mind.
Quite so. I stopped being polite and rationale a few years back when the theists took to large-scale name-calling and fully developed and inbred hatred of us Evil™ atheists. How insulting. The endless propaganda against those of us who do indeed pose a threat to radical Christian hegemony is to be fully expected.

It does, however, take valuable time away from our own personal hobbies, projects and enjoyments of such a Godless lifestyle. And yet, in reality, we also form one of the most ethical, most trustable and least Evil™ cohorts in the land. A concept that frightened Christians hope never to see accepted by the general, perhaps Christian in name only types.

You know; those very Christians who will demonstrably never open their tightly-sealed minds to any alternate ideas, not even to temporarily consider these ideas on their rational merits alone. Nope! And so we atheists must keep driving the golden stake of truth, versus intransigent dogma, into the hearts and minds of all those non-thinkers out there.

That's what we're battling.

Last edited by rifleman; 08-04-2013 at 12:36 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2013, 12:17 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,219 posts, read 19,525,937 times
Reputation: 12961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
Now, I can understand that the devout are motivated by their faith, but I've always wondered what motivates hardcore type Atheists to be so adamant in demanding a lack of exposure to any religious references or symbols in their daily lives.
I wonder about this too. I can't speak for people who I disagree with.

You'll have to ask them what motivates them to do what they do. Frankly, I haven't come across anyone who fits this description in real life or on this forum.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2013, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,273,104 times
Reputation: 4279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post

Why does the statement being on money bother you so much that you feel a lawsuit is necessary to remove it?

I don't believe in ghosts but I don't start non profit foundations against ghosts in public or lawsuits to get any type of ghost stories removed from public libraries, even though there are some documentary types that purport themselves to be fact rather than fiction......the fact is I just don't have that much negative passion on the subject.
People always assume there's a bunch of atheists sitting around in a state of complete shock and emotional distress over some words on currency. The reality is much further from that. No one finds it offensive and most atheists I know have no scruples on offensive language either. So, to attack this from the angle that we're all just a bunch of wimps for being offended by words on currency is really looking at this from the wrong perspective entirely. Before I continue on, let me reiterate that there is nothing offensive by the language on the currency. Clear?

OK... Let me explain the problem now...

The problem with the language on the currency is several-fold but really has its roots elsewhere. The main problem is that for centuries, our supposedly secular government has held the hand of religion, bent over backwards for it, established horrible laws and regulations based on it, and upheld downright hate and bigotry in association with it.

In the mid-1800's, the largest proponents of upholding slavery, often southern white men, held the Bible high above their heads in proclamation that because the Bible talked about slavery in a fashion they could translate to their modern day existence, they were somehow ingratiated by "The Word" to do such things.

Fast forward to the 1950's and 1960's with racial segregation and the abolishment of Jim Crow Laws. You'd have thought, based on the comments of many of the people and elected officials at the time, that there was some sort of "Biblical Justification" for keeping blacks and whites segregated. A number of our elected officials agreed completely.

Even now, the struggle for marriage equality amongst gays and lesbians has been met with vociferous opposition - mostly due to a bunch of people claiming that they somehow have "divine knowledge" that marriage between a man and a woman is the only way to get married - or some crap like that.

This sort of interweaving complex finds its way into the laws our lawmakers write and the judgments our judges make. Were it not for the obstinate barriers of antiquated laws and regulations religion has erected to stop progress, I suspect that things would be a lot better off in this country. At the very least, equality would be much less of an issue.

My point is that religion's influence seeps into governmental decisions in virtually everything. One can't go fifteen minutes without hearing some stupid GOP lawmaker talk about his redneck district and how everything would be so much better if everyone went to church. One can't turn CSPAN on for five minutes without some babbling moron blathering on about how it's a sin to teach evolution in school or how not paying our debt is a sign of the apocalypse.

There are even some who think a very large part of the decision by Baby Bush to invade Iraq was made because he thought it resembled something out of the Bible. Whether that is true or not, I have no idea, but I don't find it far-fetched.

You're right in the sense that you don't believe in ghosts so why would you start non-profits against them? If it was that simple, it wouldn't be a problem. People in your government are legislating based on 2,000 years of ghost mythology and lore. Imagine the absurdity if people made decisions strongly based on their alleged interactions with the ghosts you don't BELIEVE in. In fact, what if they were decisions that had the potential to enact rules of law over you or even tax you further or take away certain liberties?

The attack on things like the writing on our currency is NOT about being offended by what's written. It is, if anything, a symbolic act to remind the people running this country, and those who wish to inject religion into everything, that this is a secular nation, and really more a nation of people with a multitude of beliefs and that no single belief system should be chosen over another.

I'll put it this way:

Imagine if for nearly three centuries, our country illegally payed homage to Casper the Friendly Ghost. A huge chunk of our laws and freedoms depended entirely on people's interpretations of their reading of the Casper books. Finally, a few people in the rational future decided that enough is enough and that Casper didn't really exist and that our laws and freedoms should not be hindered by a bunch of stupid ghost whisperers.

Would you not find it reasonable to, for example, remind the people that their country is not supposed to be run by Casper and, therefore, we probably shouldn't have "In Casper We Trust" on our currency? If anything, it would be a symbolic move and the truth is, it brings up dialogue, much like what we're discussing. It brings the issue to the forefront and it gets people talking about it - much like how you posted this thread. And that's what is important... That we talk about the issues of religious theocracy and oppression that religion has enjoyed in this country for centuries and that we realize that, no, we don't want an invisible magic man running this country.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2013, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Bronx, New York
2,141 posts, read 2,567,374 times
Reputation: 3182
I'm agnostic and what I don't understand is why does this even matter?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2013, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,067 posts, read 2,771,334 times
Reputation: 4341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
To be honest with you, even if there were any 'hardcore' atheists hanging out on this forum (as Sizzly said at the beginning of the thread, 99% of us are not like that) I'm not sure how you expect to engage in a reasonable conversation with one of them when your opening post is to call them 'morons'. You either want to find out what motivates them or you don't. Sounds to me like you have already firmly made up your mind.
On the point of not finding many of that type of Atheists on this form I am in agreement.
That is why I first posted this in the Politics and other Controversies forum.
But the Moderator there felt it did not fit in topic wise even under the "other controversies" part of the forum and locked the thread, suggesting that I move it over here....so, it is where it is.
There are loads of self described "Secular Humanists" over there and while some of them they may not be technically Atheists, thats the way that many Theists and Agnostics see them.

They will spend never ending hours spouting about the separation of church and state (always talking about the Establishment Clause, "Congress shall make no law respecting the an establishment of religion" and conveniently leaving out the Free Exercise Clause, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof")
These were really the types of "Atheists" the post was directed at and yes, some of them may be aptly described as "Morons".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top