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Old 08-05-2013, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,103 posts, read 2,775,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Sounds to me like you're more of a deist than anything else. Of course this doesn't preclude you from being agnostic. Also, you do seem to have a comprehension or attention problem when we've explained time and time again the differences between agnostic and atheism, and you seem to decide not to "get it". Or, we have explained time and time again the difference between public expression of religion and government-sponsored expressions of religion, and you choose to not "get it". I think this better describes a "moron" than those who are passionate about their beliefs, as you claim.
No, my reading and comprehension skills are fine, thank you.
It's just my definitions of Theist, Agnostic and Atheist are apparently different than yours.
I GET how you are describing your definitions but I do not agree with them and think someone who describes them selfs as an Agnostic Atheist is being a more of a cop out than anything else.
If you don't believe, fine...own it.


My definition of Agnostic means that I don't know enough to believe or not believe and If that makes me a Moron in your eyes, I'm ok with that.....won't get my panties in a twist.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Rational World Park
4,999 posts, read 3,883,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I'm possibly the worlds biggest Agnostic, so I guess it's easy for me to see both sides of the equation of whether or not to believe in God (any God, not just Christian).

To me, being Agnostic means that I am aware of what a small, insignificant creature that I am in the scope of space and time and that it would be incredibly presumptuous and arrogant of me to have an attitude that there is absolutely no higher power than myself in all the cosmos.
On the other hand, every religion of the world thinks that their view is the only right one and that everyone else on the planet is doomed, dammed or whatever.

So both of the extreme views on either side are just as arrogant and ignorant as the other....

Now, I can understand that the devout are motivated by their faith, but I've always wondered what motivates hardcore type Atheists to be so adamant in demanding a lack of exposure to any religious references or symbols in their daily lives.
What I'm talking about here are the Freedom From Religion Foundation types who want to sue somebody every time a nativity scene goes up at Christmas time and lobbying to get "in God we trust" removed from currency etc.

Do you really have nothing better to do?

Because to me, you are just as bad as the morons from the Westboro Baptist Church.
So someone who is adamant about the truth being taught over fantasy is the same as people who picket dead soldiers funerals? Whatever dude. I find some agnostics to be the most pompous with their weak attempt to straddle the fence. You do realize that most atheists are also agnostic? You do realize that most agnostics are atheists? You do realize that being agnostic only answers the question of knowledge and not one of belief? What you've stated makes me think that you're an agnostic-theist that doesn't like people who aren't afraid to both not know and not believe.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Rational World Park
4,999 posts, read 3,883,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
No, my reading and comprehension skills are fine, thank you.
It's just my definitions of Theist, Agnostic and Atheist are apparently different than yours.
I GET how you are describing your definitions but I do not agree with them and think someone who describes them selfs as an Agnostic Atheist is being a more of a cop out than anything else.
If you don't believe, fine...own it.


My definition of Agnostic means that I don't know enough to believe or not believe and If that makes me a Moron in your eyes, I'm ok with that.....won't get my panties in a twist.
Sorry, but you don't get to have your own definitions.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:32 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
My definition of Agnostic means that I don't know enough to believe or not believe ...
This is the bit that confuses me about so many of those who want agnostic to be an alternative to theism and atheism alike. Belief is a binary choice, on or off, you do or you don't. What does it mean to neither believe or disbelieve?

For example, do you believe that Odin All-father exists? I am not asking if you know, we can agree that knowledge is not possible. If you do belive, what does that imply for your life? Do you worship him, fight against him? If you do not believe, what is your behavior toward Odin? Do you just ignore him and his will? treat him as a myth or fairy tale?

If you neither believe nor disbelieve, what are your actions? Do you worship on the off chance, or do you behave toward Odin exactly the same way as you would if you disbelieved? If there is no difference in outcome between your neither here nor there stance and outright disbelief, why the distinction?

Just really trying to understand this third option to what appears to be a binary choice...

-NoCapo
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,103 posts, read 2,775,843 times
Reputation: 4359
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 I guess I don't get that. How can you not rule out something you believe is fictional? To me the term Agnostic Atheist is an oxymoron....like saying you're a Hindu Muslim.

Even as an Agnostic, I don't view anyones deity as a fictional being just because I'm not certain of their existence. Again, to me there is a big difference between fairies and unicorns and a possible creator of all that is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Why?
Simple, because the theory of intelligent design, while not perfect and whether you attribute it to any deity or something else makes more scientific sense than trying to prove or disprove the existence or non existence of fairies and unicorns.

Last edited by FatBob96; 08-05-2013 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:08 PM
Q44
 
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
895 posts, read 765,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
This is the bit that confuses me about so many of those who want agnostic to be an alternative to theism and atheism alike. Belief is a binary choice, on or off, you do or you don't. What does it mean to neither believe or disbelieve?

For example, do you believe that Odin All-father exists? I am not asking if you know, we can agree that knowledge is not possible. If you do belive, what does that imply for your life? Do you worship him, fight against him? If you do not believe, what is your behavior toward Odin? Do you just ignore him and his will? treat him as a myth or fairy tale?

If you neither believe nor disbelieve, what are your actions? Do you worship on the off chance, or do you behave toward Odin exactly the same way as you would if you disbelieved? If there is no difference in outcome between your neither here nor there stance and outright disbelief, why the distinction?

Just really trying to understand this third option to what appears to be a binary choice...

-NoCapo
I've always tried very hard to avoid the digital/binary analogy because I didn't think the Decimalites would get it.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:11 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,987 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q44 View Post
I've always tried very hard to avoid the digital/binary analogy because I didn't think the Decimalites would get it.
Yeah, I program assembly language at my day job... I can't help it, I 'm a computer nerd.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't...

-NoCapo
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
8,103 posts, read 2,775,843 times
Reputation: 4359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenyo View Post
Sorry, but you don't get to have your own definitions.
Last I knew it was still a free country and there are plenty of people who agree with my definitions.....so sorry. I do get to have my own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
This is the bit that confuses me about so many of those who want agnostic to be an alternative to theism and atheism alike. Belief is a binary choice, on or off, you do or you don't. What does it mean to neither believe or disbelieve?

For example, do you believe that Odin All-father exists? I am not asking if you know, we can agree that knowledge is not possible. If you do belive, what does that imply for your life? Do you worship him, fight against him? If you do not believe, what is your behavior toward Odin? Do you just ignore him and his will? treat him as a myth or fairy tale?

If you neither believe nor disbelieve, what are your actions? Do you worship on the off chance, or do you behave toward Odin exactly the same way as you would if you disbelieved? If there is no difference in outcome between your neither here nor there stance and outright disbelief, why the distinction?

Just really trying to understand this third option to what appears to be a binary choice...

-NoCapo
Look at it this way.....I don't know enough or care enough about Odin's existence to have an opinion or to base my actions on his supposed existence or lack thereof.

Dooleys definitions of the three:

Theist: WHITE
One who believes in either a deity or some form of power higher than himself.
His faith may waiver and he may doubt himself and his own beliefs for any number of reasons but overall his belief remains.

Agnostic: GRAY
One who admits that he simply does not have enough information and or faith(or lack of faith) to believe or deny belief in any particular deity or even a higher power.
They may have different levels and reasons for being proverbially on the fence but they remain unconvinced in either direction.

Atheist: BLACK
One who sees the lack of evidence in any deity or higher power as undeniable proof of non existence.
And therefore denies any possibility of existence.

Now, there can most certainly be shades of gray......
One can be an Agnostic with more tendency towards belief or more tendency towards non belief. and that's not contrary to the definition.

But there is only one shade of White, and only one shade of Black.....everything else is simply a lighter or darker shade of gray
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:33 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,237 posts, read 19,536,382 times
Reputation: 12991
OP, let me ask you this:

Do you agree with the separation of church and state in the United States?
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,887,344 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 I guess I don't get that. How can you not rule out something you believe is fictional? To me the term Agnostic Atheist is an oxymoron....like saying you're a Hindu Muslim.

Even as an Agnostic, I don't view anyones deity as a fictional being just because I'm not certain of their existence. Again, to me there is a big difference between fairies and unicorns and a possible creator of all that is.




Simple, because the theory of intelligent design, while not perfect and whether you attribute it to any deity or something else makes more scientific sense than trying to prove or disprove the existence or non existence of fairies and unicorns.
What exactly is the theory of intelligent design you speak of? How did a God create the universe? Not why but how? What are the differences between this God like creator and a fairy creator or an intelligent Unicorn type creator? Or an alien creator of some kind? How is their design plausible? Are you telling me eating an evil apple is intelligent? I'd be pissed if that's why I have a period. Truly.

Is it the crowd of believers that convinces you? Because there isn't a unified crowd of belief, their are over 400,000 religions on this planet. There is no difference in this crowd in my opinion or the crowd that climbed a mountain and had a mass suicide party in the name of an alien creator. It didn't tip my scale on aliens.

People can group themselves into any thought as proof but that isn't proof at all. Where there's a will there is a way. Look at North Korea.

So, I'd really be interested in how you theorize intelligent design by the current God of choice and how it rises above the Unicorn or Thor for that matter. For me there is no difference in theory, just in believers at the present moment. This could change in the future just as in the past a more myth based belief system was sworn true by a crowd. Tomorrow it could be Unicorns. At least that would be cute.

Last edited by PoppySead; 08-05-2013 at 12:45 PM..
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