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Old 08-05-2013, 09:28 AM
 
3,402 posts, read 2,772,188 times
Reputation: 1325

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
Good post, however I would take issue with the details of the notion of freedom from religion and exactly what that means.
I understand and agree with freedom from religion in the scenario that the government can not force me to subscribe to any specific religion or any at all for that matter.
However I don't subscribe to the notion that some hold that it means you should be free from any public exposure to the religious symbols and traditions of others.
Others freedom of religion must trump my freedom from religion, at least in this manner..... or they are not truly free either.
I guess I don't understand why you think there is a concerted atheist effort to remove public expression of religion. The only things that I have seen are condemnation of governmental expression or endorsement, which is already prohibited by the Constitution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I also find it troubling and hypocritical how some Atheists/Secular types will condemn history and horrible things done by one religion (Christianity for example) while going out of their way to make accommodations and excuses for the equally bad things done by other religions (radical Muslims for example) out of some sense of political correctness.
Again, I am not sure I have seen this so much. In fact most of the leading atheist figures today catch a lot of flak for being "Islamophobes" because they are not being gentle on them. I do think that some may get this impression, because often when "Christians" want to decry Islam as a demonic religion of evil, many of us point out that Christianity is no better. That is not to lessen the problems with radical Islam, but merely to point out that the pot is calling the kettle black (and protesting the kettle's civil rights, locations for houses of worship, and the legality of its immigration).

For the most part us Atheists hold the same positions you are espousing, you just seem to be upset about one very specific caricature of atheism, which if it does exist, does so in very, very small numbers...

-NoCapo
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
18,399 posts, read 6,997,114 times
Reputation: 11642
Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
If you think I said that then it's best I bow out of this thread. Seriously, you have a reading comprehension problem as I said no such thing.
Quote:
Why does the statement being on money bother you so much that you feel a lawsuit is necessary to remove it?


Quote:
Personally I'd like to see it removed but I think it's a waste of time.

I read fine, but I does not take a lack of comprehension nor a herculean mental leap to go from point A to point B.

Also just because I quoted you does not mean I'm specifically talking about you and ONLY you in every word and sentence of my response.....sometimes I can start talking in more general terms, and maybe I don't make that clear enough in my responses, I admit it can probably be confusing to the reader.... but that just me......

It does not mean I have a reading compression problem.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,762,532 times
Reputation: 9398
If you make a comment regarding atheism that is intelligent and makes sense- some atheists might just censor you. Some of them have an agenda similar to Christian extremists who want to recruit those to a "cause"....of course I am off topic and this comment will disappear into the ether.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
18,399 posts, read 6,997,114 times
Reputation: 11642
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I guess I don't understand why you think there is a concerted atheist effort to remove public expression of religion. The only things that I have seen are condemnation of governmental expression or endorsement, which is already prohibited by the Constitution.


-NoCapo
I guess my logic is that if there was no concerted effort to remove public expression of religion there would be no organized groups like the Freedom from Religion Foundation doing he things that they do.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:10 AM
 
3,402 posts, read 2,772,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I guess my logic is that if there was no concerted effort to remove public expression of religion there would be no organized groups like the Freedom from Religion Foundation doing he things that they do.
So I took a peek at the FFRF, because I don't recall them pushing an agenda of silencing the public expression of religious faith.

Sure enough it is not about that at all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFRF.org
The nonprofit Freedom From Religion Foundation works to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism, and to promote the constitutional principle of separation between church and state. The Foundation is the nation's largest association of freethinkers (atheists, agnostics and skeptics) with over 19,000 members.
Since 1978, the Foundation has acted on countless violations of the separation of state and church, and has taken and won many significant complaints and important lawsuits to end state/church entanglements.

I looked at their list of ongoing litigation, and there is only one that does not involve governmental establishment or endorsement of religion. That one is about an atheist teenager being denied service at a florist because of her lack of religious belief.


Look past the name, and the rhetoric of the religionists. This is about not having our children proselytized at school, not having religious dogma enshrined in law, not giving religious groups or persons a privileged place in governance, and not discriminating against those of us who do not believe in either an actual or symbolic context.


Again, no one it trying to keep people from having and expressing a personal faith. No one is trying to close churches and mosques ( well, except the Christians...). No one it trying to forbid people from outwardly expressing their beliefs. Just don't use governmental authority, money, or coercion to do it!


-NoCapo
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:12 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,241 posts, read 28,308,556 times
Reputation: 24765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I guess my logic is that if there was no concerted effort to remove public expression of religion there would be no organized groups like the Freedom from Religion Foundation doing he things that they do.
"The largest national organization advocating for non-theists, FFRF promotes the separation of church and state and educates the public on matters relating to atheism, agnosticism and nontheism."

Sounds fine to me, except that I think they may go too far when they go to a community that is practically 100% believers and try to persuade them to remove symbols and references to religion from public spaces. That is unnecessary, but it's also a fine line.

Also, if they went to the White House or the U.S. Capitol and tried to ban the display of Christmas trees from there, then I wouldn't support that at all.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,390 posts, read 11,544,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I guess I don't get that.
How can you not rule out something you believe is fictional?
To me the term Agnostic Atheist is an oxymoron....like saying you're a Hindu Muslim.

Even as an Agnostic, I don't view anyones deity as a fictional being just because I'm not certain of their existence.
Again, to me there is a big difference between fairies and unicorns and a possible creator of all that is.
Why?
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,390 posts, read 11,544,366 times
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Who really wants a "divine right monarchy"? As we speak Christians are petitioning state and country to adopt Christianity as the nations religion. They have the right to try that, and see if their version of our country is possible. I say, go for it!!

Since I live here, love it and have the same freedoms Christians do I oppose it. I'm not really sorry it irritates you actually. I would love to have the president address the nation without praising a God, and I would love to have currency that isn't blessed by a spirit leader. I'd love to see religion become a personal hobby, not a lifestyle for an entire free nation of immigrants like America. I will be active in this. I'd like all religions to have equality here, including the non religious. I'd like equality for everyone actually. This would require a government free from religious bias, propaganda and rituals. Oval office prayer meetings aren't necessary, neither is a Gods title on our currency. IMO, of course. So, I'll try to do what I can to remove the things regarding religious belief from our government just as those Christians will try to incorporate them.

Atheists can be active in their communities and their country. It doesn't make them "anti-theists" just active atheists representing their dream for this country. One of mine is keeping religion out of our politics. Yours might be something different. So, become active for or against what you hold dear. That doesn't make you less of a person it makes you an American. People shape this nation, it's awesome. Try to enjoy the freedom to do so.

Calling atheists names or belittling those who are active like any other activist group in America just makes you look insecure in my opinion. Don't let it get to you. We simply have a different view of what makes this country great. May the best man win.

I may irritate you but that's your problem. Thankfully.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:25 AM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,665,169 times
Reputation: 1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooleys1300 View Post
I guess my logic is that if there was no concerted effort to remove public expression of religion there would be no organized groups like the Freedom from Religion Foundation doing he things that they do.
Sounds to me like you're more of a deist than anything else. Of course this doesn't preclude you from being agnostic. Also, you do seem to have a comprehension or attention problem when we've explained time and time again the differences between agnostic and atheism, and you seem to decide not to "get it". Or, we have explained time and time again the difference between public expression of religion and government-sponsored expressions of religion, and you choose to not "get it". I think this better describes a "moron" than those who are passionate about their beliefs, as you claim.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,390 posts, read 11,544,366 times
Reputation: 7544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Sounds to me like you're more of a deist than anything else. Of course this doesn't preclude you from being agnostic. Also, you do seem to have a comprehension or attention problem when we've explained time and time again the differences between agnostic and atheism, and you seem to decide not to "get it". Or, we have explained time and time again the difference between public expression of religion and government-sponsored expressions of religion, and you choose to not "get it". I think this better describes a "moron" than those who are passionate about their beliefs, as you claim.
Most excellent post Amaznjohn! I agree.
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