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Old 08-17-2013, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,444 posts, read 12,170,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I can understand the point about robots and that a god would not want flesh and blood machines without will or volition. If we loved, obeyed and worshipped this God, I can see that it would only be pleasing to Him if it was done of our own choice, and not under compulsion let alone mind - control. That is plenty to account for free Will in God's creation, since evidently animals and indeed angels have Free will as well, as otherwise one could not account for the satanic rebellion and angelic fall, just as Adam disobeyed and fell.


Any problems with that so far, God -believers?
Good post...but I don't believe in Adam, a Fall, a disobedience, some test,...satanic rebellion I must
say I just don't know if that happened either....was there a Lucifer? Did he rebel?
Maybe.
Signed a God believer..
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Dallas
242 posts, read 197,274 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Are you referring to ABSOLUTE free will or to LIMITED free will?

Please think before answering this:

If God (the Judeo-Christian God) exists, would it make sense to conclude that ANY being (God or not) can (has the ability to) exercise complete or absolute free will?
Once you've given he/she/it exemptive magical powers from logic (eg. uncaused cause), does it really even matter how many or which "what-if's" you throw in?
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:56 AM
 
39,217 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
Good post...but I don't believe in Adam, a Fall, a disobedience, some test,...satanic rebellion I must
say I just don't know if that happened either....was there a Lucifer? Did he rebel?
Maybe.
Signed a God believer..
Well, I don't believe a word of it myself, but I'm sorta touching all bases in the game played in all the ways I can think of.

Typed, an unbelieving bastard .
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,434,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greaemonkey View Post
Once you've given he/she/it exemptive magical powers from logic (eg. uncaused cause), does it really even matter how many or which "what-if's" you throw in?
I would agree with you IF I were to grant "he/she/it" exemption from logic. I have not done so.

Would you perhaps now be so kind as to answer my questions?
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Dallas
242 posts, read 197,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
If God (the Judeo-Christian God) exists.
*snip*

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
I would agree with you IF I were to grant "he/she/it" exemption from logic. I have not done so.

Would you perhaps now be so kind as to answer my questions?
Hate to say it, but the Judeo-Christian god is by definition exempt from logic (all gods for that matter); that's why they call it supernatural.

Trying to draw an invisible line between the differences of "absolute" free will vs "limited" free will is about the same as asking me to answer how many angels would be able to dance on the head of a pin if they were on Atkins as opposed to Jenny Craig.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:17 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,434,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greaemonkey View Post
*snip*



Hate to say it, but the Judeo-Christian god is by definition exempt from logic (all gods for that matter); that's why they call it supernatural.
You saying so doesn't necessarily make it so. Could God (Judeo-Christian) create a square circle or a four sided triangle? Does scripture list things that God cannot do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greaemonkey View Post
Trying to draw an invisible line between the differences of "absolute" free will vs "limited" free will is about the same as asking me to answer how many angels would be able to dance on the head of a pin if they were on Atkins as opposed to Jenny Craig.
It seems to me that you're making it much more complicated than it needs to be. The questions are actually quite simple and straight forward.

No tricks - just seeking an honest answer.

(Perhaps that's my problem - seeking honesty and frankness where there is none to be found)
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Dallas
242 posts, read 197,274 times
Reputation: 151
In that case, if obesity is a problem among angels, then it makes logical sense that dieting might allow more of them to dance on the head of the pin if either the pin were large enough or they were small enough (and they weren't trying to do the swing).

*edit*
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
(Perhaps that's my problem - seeking honesty and frankness where there is none to be found)
Actually, the problem is asking a bunch of people who don't believe in Unicorns what properties their horn would have if they did exist. Once you allow magic into the equation, then intelligent answers go out the window.

Last edited by greaemonkey; 08-17-2013 at 11:11 AM.. Reason: addition
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:58 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,434,542 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by greaemonkey View Post
In that case, if obesity is a problem among angels, then it makes logical sense that dieting might allow more of them to dance on the head of the pin if either the pin were large enough or they were small enough (and they weren't trying to do the swing).

*edit*


Actually, the problem is asking a bunch of people who don't believe in Unicorns what properties their horn would have if they did exist. Once you allow magic into the equation, then intelligent answers go out the window.

...and the atheistic dogma continues to abound...

Pardon me for asking.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:16 PM
 
Location: In exile
534 posts, read 713,767 times
Reputation: 1384
as we are biological creatures, i would think that the source of "free will" is our innate mechanics. Why does one person stop to notice a cloud, and another look at the same cloud and notice nothing?
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
1,650 posts, read 3,012,033 times
Reputation: 2122
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Are you referring to ABSOLUTE free will or to LIMITED free will?

Please think before answering this:

If God (the Judeo-Christian God) exists, would it make sense to conclude that ANY being (God or not) can (has the ability to) exercise complete or absolute free will?
Were you going for the omniscience/omnipotence/paradox angle?
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