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Old 08-17-2013, 12:59 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roscomac View Post
Were you going for the omniscience/omnipotence/paradox angle?
Honestly and sincerely - I don't really have any "angle." With respect to the OP, I would only say that if my questions are legitimate, it would infer that the person presenting the OP doesn't quite understand what the question ought to be. Would this seem to be a fair estimate IYO?
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
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The answer that naturally flows from your question is that if a supernatural being (J-C god) is assumed to exist, then it is just as easily assumed that this being exists outside of the rules or logic. If we are to assume this god real, we can also assume it has any supernatural abilities - logical/paradoxical or not. I think you took that answer as a non-answer, and I look it as the only possible answer.
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roscomac View Post
The answer that naturally flows from your question is that if a supernatural being (J-C god) is assumed to exist, then it is just as easily assumed that this being exists outside of the rules or logic. If we are to assume this god real, we can also assume it has any supernatural abilities - logical/paradoxical or not. I think you took that answer as a non-answer, and I look it as the only possible answer.
Well, I suppose we will never know being that nobody seems willing to answer my questions.

Your point here would seem to me to be a non sequitur. I see no logical reason to assume that the Judeo-Christian God either exists or must exist outside the "rules" or "logic." (I'm guessing that we would probably have a fair amount of disagreement as to what the rules or logic actually are and from whence they come.)
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:35 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,321,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
Just read a post mentioning free will as coming from some source outside of ourselves. The connotation being from some god or other.

The question occurs to me is if it is some religious source for free will, why do the theists admit that an individual can and is punished for exercising free will in defiance of their god?

It would appear that they are saying that free will is not so free.

Just a thought.
IMO, what theists espouse as free will is "if you choose not to believe in their silly beliefs, you have exercised free will and are damned"

OTOH, there is no such thing as free will. It is an illusion. My outlook is pretty much deterministic which is depressing when you dismantle the concept of you having much say in the outcome of your life. It is probably why Calvin dreamt up the predestination model.

I have had a lot of time to reflect on my past and when all the cards are laid out, choice does not factor into it that much. Many circumstances outside of your control generally determine the choices we are presented with.

I have shared here before how my late wife and I met and the circumstances that led to that encounter. Not much was in my control. Even when we "decided" to have children, that "decision" was probably more driven by broodiness on her part and the need for me to produce an heir, instinct?

The presentation of theological "choices" are governed by coercion and rarely, if ever, present a logical choice. The yaysayers are IMO all influenced by RL circumstances where a solution is sought and perhaps, conformance to the flock mentality produces what appears to be an amicable solution. Again, this is tribal instinct at play here and being a "rebel" tends to have negative connotations in what is deemed to be the norm in society. One really does not wish to be "rejected" by the group and/or family for that matter. So from a theist perspective, it does appear logical. But is it?

Not really.

The definition of quality simplified is, "conformance to requirements". This is a very difficult concept to grasp. An analogy here, a VW Beetle and a BMW, which is better quality? I suppose most will say the beamer? Yet if the sole purpose is to get from A to B and then back again, the only difference is perhaps luxury. That in itself is very subjective. A dude in a mule drawn cart will no doubt see the beetle as better, more efficient and more luxurious. Who sets this arbitrary median for "quality"? Societal norms perhaps?

When it comes to atheism, well, in the car analogy you just got yer feet and you walk from A to B. Don't need no stinking car...

If you read what I just said and try and see the so called "free will" analogy superimposed, you can see that it really has no bearing on reality. The mule dies, you walk, you cannot afford gas, you walk. The natural world is a great equaliser.

Considering where you were born, your life is very much was or appears to be determined how things will turn out. When you reach adulthood and independence (18) a good quarter to a third of your life has been pretty much outside of your control.

Cause and effect produce outcomes, neither of which do we have much control over.
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Old 08-17-2013, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Well, I suppose we will never know being that nobody seems willing to answer my questions.

Your point here would seem to me to be a non sequitur. I see no logical reason to assume that the Judeo-Christian God either exists or must exist outside the "rules" or "logic." (I'm guessing that we would probably have a fair amount of disagreement as to what the rules or logic actually are and from whence they come.)
I answered your question. Yes. I also explained the thought process behind it. If this god is supernatural, then there is no reason for that god to be bound by anything that we consider to be paradoxical and/or impossible.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:08 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roscomac View Post
I answered your question. Yes. I also explained the thought process behind it. If this god is supernatural, then there is no reason for that god to be bound by anything that we consider to be paradoxical and/or impossible.
Here is a restatement of my first question:

ABSOLUTE free will or to LIMITED free will?

Your answer to this is - yes?

Second question:

If God (the Judeo-Christian God) exists, would it make sense to conclude that ANY being (God or not) can (has the ability to) exercise complete or absolute free will?

Your answer to this is yes? In other words, you are suggesting that the God described in the Bible is capable of acting against his own nature?
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
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I was only answering the second question because that answer provided an answer to the first.

And yes, if the JC god is real, it would be capable of acting against its own nature, at least against this nature according to humans' limited ability to understand. We can only grasp the natural. If this god is supernatural, then it exists outside of the rules that we understand and live by. So yes. If this god can exist, it can certainly do things that seem impossible and paradoxical to us. Once you've allowed that the supernatural exists, you can't constrain it with the natural.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:37 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roscomac View Post
I was only answering the second question because that answer provided an answer to the first.

And yes, if the JC god is real, it would be capable of acting against its own nature, at least against this nature according to humans' limited ability to understand. We can only grasp the natural. If this god is supernatural, then it exists outside of the rules that we understand and live by. So yes. If this god can exist, it can certainly do things that seem impossible and paradoxical to us. Once you've allowed that the supernatural exists, you can't constrain it with the natural.
Being that the Bible informs us that there are certain things God cannot do, I can only conclude that your view here is highly unorthodox at best. As well, in that the Bible informs us of God's complete sovereignty over creation, this would also obviously limit the free will of human beings.

In summary, according to scripture, no being possesses absolute free will. Therefore, my answer to the OP is that "defiance" against God can only logically occur if God permits it. Limited free will apparently comes from God i.e., "outside."

I appreciate your time and input - we must apparently agree to disagree.
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
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When we're talking about a Bronze Age idea fleshed out with many, MANY contradictions and paradoxes, we can reach any conclusion that we'd like.

(And you went for exactly the angle I asked about. )
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:54 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 8,259,160 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Are you referring to ABSOLUTE free will or to LIMITED free will?

Please think before answering this:

If God (the Judeo-Christian God) exists, would it make sense to conclude that ANY being (God or not) can (has the ability to) exercise complete or absolute free will?
My point is that it cannot be "freewill" if it required for reward.

I do not believe that any being granted free will, but some feel the need to ascribe it to a higher being.
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