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Old 08-09-2013, 08:59 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
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Just read a post mentioning free will as coming from some source outside of ourselves. The connotation being from some god or other.

The question occurs to me is if it is some religious source for free will, why do the theists admit that an individual can and is punished for exercising free will in defiance of their god?

It would appear that they are saying that free will is not so free.

Just a thought.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
Just read a post mentioning free will as coming from some source outside of ourselves. The connotation being from some god or other.

The question occurs to me is if it is some religious source for free will, why do the theists admit that an individual can and is punished for exercising free will in defiance of their god?

It would appear that they are saying that free will is not so free.

Just a thought.
I can understand the point about robots and that a god would not want flesh and blood machines without will or volition. If we loved, obeyed and worshipped this God, I can see that it would only be pleasing to Him if it was done of our own choice, and not under compulsion let alone mind - control. That is plenty to account for free Will in God's creation, since evidently animals and indeed angels have Free will as well, as otherwise one could not account for the satanic rebellion and angelic fall, just as Adam disobeyed and fell.


Any problems with that so far, God -believers?
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I can understand the point about robots and that a god would not want flesh and blood machines without will or volition. If we loved, obeyed and worshipped this God, I can see that it would only be pleasing to Him if it was done of our own choice, and not under compulsion let alone mind - control. That is plenty to account for free Will in God's creation, since evidently animals and indeed angels have Free will as well, as otherwise one could not account for the satanic rebellion and angelic fall, just as Adam disobeyed and fell.


Any problems with that so far, God -believers?
No.
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Old 08-09-2013, 11:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
No.
Great. Thus far, we have been given free will (i.e, freedom of choice) at the time of creation, and God is surely aware of the risks entailed in that, and I am not going to suggests that God should be biting his nails in impotence to take any corrective action because it is All His Fault. If He is not entitled to send a few instructive whirlwhinds, plagues of boils and rappers to teach us to behave, who is?

What this does not mean is that God is somehow prevented from putting in an appearance in a way undistinguishable from mere chance by anyone other than someone endowed with the discernment of faith to pick out from a hundred lucky throws the one that is for sure evidence of God's intervention. To use a Biblical example, just before I go to wash my hands, God intervened in no uncertain way to ensure that Paul, who up to that time, had got his spiritual satisfaction from seeing Jewish messianists buried under heaps of rocks, was pretty near forced into conversion as makes no difference.

Now if God wasn't constrained from pretty coercive intervention there in order to obtain a result, I cannot see any merit in the argument that somehow the failure of god to make himself known in any way other than winning football matches, imprinting images of his Son of pieces of toast, bringing to light car keys that were lost and have now been found and sending so - called natural disasters 'just to let us know he's there' for no better reason than that they look so like natural disasters that they do not violate the Prime Directive - 'Don't ever provide definite evidence that you exist', is explained by the argument that to so would somehow thereby violate and nullify our Free Will.

It would do no such thing, as if God rolled up and took over the US administration, Postal system and management of the Red Sox, we would have just as much free will as Paul ever had, and probably more choice about whether to do what God wanted than he had.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
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Another thing about free will that has always puzzled me is this. Why is it so important for the 100 years or less a human lives on earth but not important enough to exist at all in heaven where the "soul" lives for eternity? After all, there will be no sin in heaven.
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Why does free will have to have a source outside your own conscious volition?

You are consciousness. The whole universe is consciousness.
All life, including plants have consciousness.
Some forms just do not have the means to express it or don't have the means to express it in ways the we humans can detect.
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I can understand the point about robots and that a god would not want flesh and blood machines without will or volition. If we loved, obeyed and worshipped this God, I can see that it would only be pleasing to Him if it was done of our own choice, and not under compulsion let alone mind - control. That is plenty to account for free Will in God's creation, since evidently animals and indeed angels have Free will as well, as otherwise one could not account for the satanic rebellion and angelic fall, just as Adam disobeyed and fell.


Any problems with that so far, God -believers?
Except that the "Almighty" would coerce people into it under threat of eternal hellfire. It's very much a "worship me or else" scenario. I don't consider that free will. I consider it the same as holding a gun to someone's head.
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:42 PM
 
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'Free-Will' is probably an illusion.

I freely believe that - or do I?
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
Except that the "Almighty" would coerce people into it under threat of eternal hellfire. It's very much a "worship me or else" scenario. I don't consider that free will. I consider it the same as holding a gun to someone's head.
Coercion does not nullify free will - we can still decide that we don't want to do it, but we don't dare not to. Nullifying free will would entail somehow controlling our minds so that our will was no longer really our own - and my example of Paul came close to that, but even he could have refused to play ball, even if God had his eyes taped up until he did.

Even Jesus, though the man - vehicle was pretty much driven around by the god at the wheel was not entirely deprived of free will, or the sacrifice of obedience (argued by Paul as the mechanism by which the disobedience of Adam was bridged and the New Covenant remade) would have been meaningless.

Jesus asked to be let off, even though he must have known that God's plan depended on it, and if God couldn't see any other way, Jesus the man was willing to go through with it. And yet God had acted in ways that (ostensibly) went far beyond what God is willing to do now, and the point is that the argument that God can't do anything that will provide definite proof that he really exists - proof that Christianity needs very badly now (1) - because this would abrogate our free will (so the excuse goes) will plainly not wash.

Thus the suspicion daily increases that the reason God does not do anything other than looks like coincidence, good luck, some unexplained medical or physical effect or in fact fakery or self -deception is because he cannot, because he is either not here on this earth with us or is not anywhere.

My money is on the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
'Free-Will' is probably an illusion.

I freely believe that - or do I?
Free will is like everything else in life - real, but an illusion. An illusion created by by the limited perception of human beans.

We make what we call 'decisions' or 'choices'. In many cases we know the mechanism involved (or we could if we thought about it): instinct innate or instilled. Habits acquired in daily life. How many of us have found ourselves getting into the car and driving to the office when we we meant to go to the golf -club, but we were thinking about something else and the ingrained habit took over from the conscious mind.

Thus the decisions and choices we make are no more 'Chance' or 'random' than the factors that created life, the universe and everything, though they seem chance or random to us because of our limited understanding. There are reasons and causes behind everything we do - even flipping a coin, though we can't predict accurately which side will come down, but because we can only rarely know what these causes are, we attribute them to a sort of 'free and random' choice and indeed to all intents and purposes, that is what it is.

Of course, the freedom to indulge even choices and preferences that we are aware of we also called free will, even if under a total regime, such as there is in heaven apparently, where spirit bods are so drained of humanity that they can praise God alway in mindless joy of worship while their heathen or unbelieving relatives roast in Perdition (2) The winged gofers of God also have volition of their own, since a good slice of them rebelled, so we are told. Though of course, since then God may indeed have decided that mindless robots are all he could trust to have with him in heaven.

(1) so the argument used in John 20.29 that the proof given to Thomas should be enough for everyone is wearing a bit thin now, especially as comparison of the Thomas story with Luke 24.33 -on (never mind Matthew!) indicates that it isn't true.


(2)though another theory or doctrine holds that they actually love to have the best seats at the balcony overlooking the flames and laugh and jeer: 'That'll teach you to sneer at my freeze -dried eucalyptus! Now you wish you'd listened to me!'

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-17-2013 at 02:57 AM..
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:25 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
Just read a post mentioning free will as coming from some source outside of ourselves. The connotation being from some god or other.

The question occurs to me is if it is some religious source for free will, why do the theists admit that an individual can and is punished for exercising free will in defiance of their god?

It would appear that they are saying that free will is not so free.

Just a thought.
Are you referring to ABSOLUTE free will or to LIMITED free will?

Please think before answering this:

If God (the Judeo-Christian God) exists, would it make sense to conclude that ANY being (God or not) can (has the ability to) exercise complete or absolute free will?
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