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Old 10-07-2013, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,115,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Sometimes I wonder how much awareness is brought to medical research in prioritizing research projects. Maybe it's only because I'm outside the medical profession and just don't see it, but I'm unaware of much debate about maximizing quality of life by eliminating disease, and in any event there clearly isn't enough such reflection going on, judging from how we keep the elderly alive only for the dubious purpose of engaging in hail-Mary surgeries in a mindlessly desperate attempt to keep them alive even one more day, no matter if they are comfortable or even want to live that badly.
Excellent point, Mordant.

This winter, I suggest you read the book "Talking to the Ground" by Douglas Preston.

The author writes about a journey taken on horseback by him, his fiance, and her teen-age daughter. They rode across the Navajo reservation, following the path taken by the mythical Monster Slayer who destroyed evil monsters and made the land safe for the humans to live.

It is interesting what Monster Slayer does when he finally meets the 'monster' who causes death and destruction. It is very different from what a Christian would do.
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,367 posts, read 2,980,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Yeah, that is exactly my point.

Because of modern technology, people with my type of birth defect can fully participate in society and procreate, thereby passing that defect along to future generations, as I have done.

After more generations, that defect will be much more common, and many future humans will not be as physically fit as current generations.

Well, so what? I'm glad to be alive right here and right now.

Maybe in the future, after a large asteroid hits the Earth or a super-volcano like Yellowstone explodes, life will become more difficult for humans and natural-selection will re-assert itself.
As someone with a learning disability, I acknowledge that, due to my carbon footprint, it is very possible that life would be better for everyone if someone else had been born instead of myself.

I also acknowledge that a period of Nazi-style proactive cleansing of genetic undesirable could have long term benefits for humanity.

That said, there would be numerous short term negatives to such cleansing, such as me indiscriminately firing a machine gun at people...pretty much whoever's closest. The only exception would be that anyone wearing a T-shirt over a sweater would be killed first.

Who needs logic when you can get what you want using a combination of sociopathy and terrorist tactics
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:57 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,357,700 times
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Quote:
After more generations, that defect will be much more common, and many future humans will not be as physically fit as current generations.
That's not necessarily true unless people with defects start mass producing children. There will always be children born with birth defects unless we really push for more DNA research. My guess is that, someday, we'll be able to rearrange "bad" DNA to "cure" the defect right inside the womb.

While you see technology as creating more "defective" people, I see technology virtually eliminating genetically transferred issues. People will still get sick, but perhaps they will not be born with debilitating medical conditions.
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,894,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Actually, the humans in the future will be greatly inferior to the humans alive today, for two reasons.

1) The stupid people are the ones having a lot of kids and they are passing on their stupid genes.

2) We are using our technology to let people like me with birth defects have children. We are passing on these defects to our offspring.

Does any Atheist disagree with me?
I am assuming you are equating stupid with low income.

Steven King, Opra, Hallie Berry, Frank Odea owns Second Cup, Suzie Orman, Chris Gardner, Rosa Parks. Just a few that came from poor families but there are many more. The gifted classes are full of kids whos families are poor. History is full of people that came from poor families, its full people who struggled and made them selfs great despite. Low income doesnt mean you are stupid but that you are distracted with burden. You make some poor decisions because of this. IQ is higher, regardless of bad decisions.
This
Same with birth defects, plenty of successful people with them, our ability to rise above these challenges shows intelligence and will power.It only strengthens us, I wouldn't worry about the future of human beings, we will survive for a long time and our IQ will continue to grow. We will grow despite our handicap and our financial burden. We've always done this as a species.
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,115,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I wouldn't worry about the future of human beings
Of course we should not worry about it. You and I will be dead in a few years. We should enjoy the life we have right now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
we will survive for a long time and our IQ will continue to grow. We will grow despite our handicap and our financial burden. We've always done this as a species.
Our species has improved over time because of natural selection.

With natural selection not in place anymore, thanks to our welfare society, and our technological ability to help people like me overcome our birth defcts, all kinds of defective people are having offspring. That means humans are going downhill genetically.
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,089,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I am assuming you are equating stupid with low income.

Steven King, Opra, Hallie Berry, Frank Odea owns Second Cup, Suzie Orman, Chris Gardner, Rosa Parks. Just a few that came from poor families but there are many more. The gifted classes are full of kids whos families are poor. History is full of people that came from poor families, its full people who struggled and made them selfs great despite. Low income doesnt mean you are stupid but that you are distracted with burden. You make some poor decisions because of this. IQ is higher, regardless of bad decisions.

Same with birth defects, plenty of successful people with them, our ability to rise above these challenges shows intelligence and will power.It only strengthens us, I wouldn't worry about the future of human beings, we will survive for a long time and our IQ will continue to grow. We will grow despite our handicap and our financial burden. We've always done this as a species.
Another good example is Ezra Cornell who came from humble beginnings, was self-made in (IIRC) the telegraph business, determined to give away his money to productive and game-changing causes during his lifetime, and went on to co-found and co-fund Cornell University and one of the first free public lending libraries in the country, which is in part the model for public libraries today. Coming from humble beginnings can produce real drive and creativity to the benefit of humanity.

However the way I read Hiker was not that he was equating poor with stupid so much as stupid with mindless breeding (generally quantity over quality) which in turn tends to produce poverty and a vicious circle.

I don't know how valid that generalization is, however, or how helpful even if valid. On a worldwide basis the bigger issue is probably just that third world denizens tend to have lots of kids because it's a valid survival strategy given the constraints of those cultures -- both as to the operation of family businesses on shoestring labor, having enough kids to overcome lousy survival rates, and having enough extended family to provide for the elderly in the clan. The very picture of "misery loves company" although probably not in the exact sense that term is normally used.

I agree with you however that it's far more nuanced and complex than just stupid and ill-adapted people overwhelming the human race and pulling everyone down with them. It's also not true that smart and well adapted people can get along without all those unwashed masses. We all need each other. We are all connected -- and it doesn't require new-age woo or some kind of kumbyah group hug ethic to believe this, either.
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,115,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I am assuming you are equating stupid with low income.
I believe there is a correlation between stupid people and the ones having a bunch of kids.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,115,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
On a worldwide basis the bigger issue is probably just that third world denizens tend to have lots of kids
Actually, the best hope for the future is the people in the third world, where natural selection is still in effect.

If you live in the third world and do not have a great immune system or have a birth defect or are stupid, you probably will not have as many kids. In general, only the genetically fit people are having most of the kids.

I saw on TV that some people in Africa have even evolved immunity against AIDS. Once the people with AIDS all die off, the people with immunity will be left. That's natural selection in action.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:22 AM
 
Location: SC
2,967 posts, read 4,191,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baxendale View Post
I didn't become an atheist, I was born an atheist. The indoctrination did not work.
This, exactly.

Was born a free-thinker, and have been able to remain one. It is a beautiful freedom.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:51 AM
 
Location: SC
2,967 posts, read 4,191,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Actually, the humans in the future will be greatly inferior to the humans alive today, for two reasons.

1) The stupid people are the ones having a lot of kids and they are passing on their stupid genes.

2) We are using our technology to let people like me with birth defects have children. We are passing on these defects to our offspring.

Does any Atheist disagree with me?
I agree 100%

We are currently experiencing self-induced survival of the least-fit. The most educated, healthy, and responsible members of US society are having so few children (or none), that they are not even reaching a genetic replacement rate. The lower the income, lower the IQ and unemployed-by-choice are producing huge litters of children, and their offspring will go on to produce even more, very rapidly. In the mean time, they are rewarded with free benefits from society; the working person goes to work each day to pay for them. They are essentially parasitic, and we are the host.

Unfortunately, many churches are helping to make this happen. Their Draconian views on birth control, keeping women dumbed down, home schooling, and defunding education is only making things worse. They use the uterus as a weapon, when breeding the most amount of children will help them repopulate the earth and continue to outbreed Islam and the other religions they compete with.
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