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Old 09-19-2013, 04:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
hmmm..but why limit yourself????????????? I'd suggest you let your mind entertain the thought. Who knows where it will take you?? There's kind of a great big world and universe out there, you know? Pondering can do no harm. At the least it makes life interesting...;-)...
I's suggest the same to you. Why not consider the other religious claims, impartially. Or the alternatives to religious claims?
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
hmmm..but why limit yourself????????????? I'd suggest you let your mind entertain the thought.
You assume people here have not "entertained the thought"? Of course we have. And we have found the thought to be unfulfilling and unsubstantiated nonsense. So I am not sure what you feel is being limited, or missed out on, here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
There's kind of a great big world and universe out there, you know? Pondering can do no harm. At the least it makes life interesting...;-)...
And the world and universe are both filled with many lifetimes worth of things to ponder and consider and learn about and discover. So what do you feel it adds to ignore all that and ponder instead some unsubstantiated nonsense that you made up in your own head?

It is THAT that is limiting and perhaps it is you that needs to take your own advice. Explore life and how interesting it ACTUALLY is rather than navel gaze at makey up and unsubstantiated nonsense to entertain yourself instead.

There's kind of a great big world and universe out there, you know? Explore it rather than make up nonsense about it.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will307 View Post
The atheist experience show on Youtube turned me super atheist in the blink of an eye, also reading the bible and learning more about science and other religions helped too. What did it for you?
I never did anything, i never worshiped a god, never attended a church, never practised a religion, never talked much about religion or gave it much thought,never read religious books like the bible etc.,i just assumed i was an atheist, as religion plays no part in my life. However curiosity has me wondering why some continue to apply attributes to atheists that seem to imply it to be some kind of alternate movement when the atheists i know couldnt care less about all things religion...
I get the feeling i'm missing something when it comes to describing an atheist..
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Old 09-19-2013, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
I never did anything, i never worshiped a god, never attended a church, never practised a religion, never talked much about religion or gave it much thought,never read religious books like the bible etc.,i just assumed i was an atheist, as religion plays no part in my life. However curiosity has me wondering why some continue to apply attributes to atheists that seem to imply it to be some kind of alternate movement when the atheists i know couldnt care less about all things religion...
I get the feeling i'm missing something when it comes to describing an atheist..
You raise an interesting point and I think the answer is that theists so need group reinforcement to sustain belief that they just assume we do, too -- maybe even more so because they really can't imagine being without god, which they see as meaning without hope, without morality, without meaning.

Christians for example are adjured to "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is, and all the more so as you see the day [of the Lord] approaching". They see this as "encouraging one another". This circling of the wagons is necessary to counter any critical thinking that might accidentally occur in individual members.

What they fail to see is that we don't need the same support structure to keep critical thinking going; the very reason Christianity suppresses it and has such an anti-rationalist bent is that it is a self sustaining phenomenon. Theists, like all people, have brain cells and those cells want to be gainfully employed. So an atheist can break free of theism quite on their own and can sustain it quite on their own. In the beginning they may benefit from talking to other unbelievers because they are still, out of habit, suppressing their own thought processes, and are not used to the freedom of thought. But in the main, atheists feel no need to meet with other atheists and in fact don't generally belong to atheist organizations, etc.

That atheism could exist as a self-sustaining phenomenon at the individual level without an organization and rituals propping it up is hard for a theist to get their arms around. Indeed, this is also the source of the theist's constant assertion that atheism is a belief and requires faith, just like their system of thinking. I think they can't see atheism that way because it unintentionally exposes the open secret of theism which is that without everyone constantly talking each other into it, no sane person would actually believe any of it.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:08 AM
 
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Thanks Mordant.
I've posed my query several times in different but similar topics and until now no one has ever bothered to reply, thanks for the good explanation,,
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:21 AM
 
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You assume people here have not "entertained the thought"? Of course we have. And we have found the thought to be unfulfilling and unsubstantiated nonsense. So I am not sure what you feel is being limited, or missed out on, here.


Yes, you probably have but I must suggest that you should apply respect where it is due in this kind of discourse. No need to take the sword out of the scabbard withn the 'nonsense' appellation. Both you and I come from opposite and disparate belief systems and neither of us don't hold a claim to absolute truth. We have lamps and we shine them in particular ways. In my original comment,I'm suggesting to keep the 'beam' constantly moving. As noted once before you guys are 'alien'. It's fascinating to me. So much intellectual power and incredible, beautiful logic to attack 'nonsense'. Absolutely fascinating!
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
I never did anything, i never worshiped a god, never attended a church, never practised a religion, never talked much about religion or gave it much thought,never read religious books like the bible etc.,i just assumed i was an atheist, as religion plays no part in my life. However curiosity has me wondering why some continue to apply attributes to atheists that seem to imply it to be some kind of alternate movement when the atheists i know couldnt care less about all things religion...
I get the feeling i'm missing something when it comes to describing an atheist..
No, you have it right. You are what an atheist would be if there was no religion to react to - we would all be atheists (non -believers in any gods) but we wouldn't have a name for it, wouldn't spend time arguing about it or even think about it.

The religious 'project' - see atheism in terms of a list of dogmas, a belief -system, a creed and an organization with lines of authority, preachers and an agenda. They are mistaken..except perhaps about the agenda
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:32 AM
 
39,217 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
You assume people here have not "entertained the thought"? Of course we have. And we have found the thought to be unfulfilling and unsubstantiated nonsense. So I am not sure what you feel is being limited, or missed out on, here.


Yes, you probably have but I must suggest that you should apply respect where it is due in this kind of discourse. No need to take the sword out of the scabbard within the 'nonsense' appellation. Both you and I come from opposite and disparate belief systems and neither of us don't hold a claim to absolute truth. We have lamps and we shine them in particular ways. In my original comment,I'm suggesting to keep the 'beam' constantly moving. As noted once before you guys are 'alien'. It's fascinating to me. So much intellectual power and incredible, beautiful logic to attack 'nonsense'. Absolutely fascinating!
Ok, but Nozz is hardly laying about him. 'Nonsense' is just a rather plain -speaking way of explaining why we don't spend a lot of time shining our beam into the garden at night looking for fairies since reason tells us that to do so is not sense. It isn't intended personally, I am sure.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:42 AM
 
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Apologies for the short delay in the reply. Your inability/unwillingness to correctly use the QUOTE function meant I missed your reply for a moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Yes, you probably have but I must suggest that you should apply respect where it is due in this kind of discourse.
I am unsure where I failed to apply respect where you feel it is warranted. I can only assume you want me to apply it where I personally do not think it even is warranted. I see nothing lacking respect in the post you are replying to for example. Alas it is a common theistic tactic when confronted with challenging conversations on the subject of religion.... to start playing the "offence" or "respect" card.

Thankfully that card is falling on its face more and more as time goes by.... as blasphemy laws fall apart (except alas in my home country of ireland where they essentially renewed it)..... and as taboos about questioning religion are steadily eroded.

It is BECAUSE of my respect and care for my fellow man and my species in fact that I challenge unsubstantiated notions, concepts and other nonsense when and where I see it. Would that more people in the world would do so rather than sit idly by and allow it to pass unnoticed.

So if you are going to "suggest" some application of "respect" on my part you would do well to do more than simply vaguely make the "suggestion" but in fact adumbrate exactly how and where you feel I should be doing so where I otherwise failed to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
neither of us don't hold a claim to absolute truth.
Unusual double negative aside.... nothing I wrote above requires me to have or even claim to have "absolute truth" at all. So you appear to be going off on some weird tangent of your own here that has nothing whatsoever to do with my post.

I do not require absolute truth or absolute knowledge to identify when an idea is nonsense or unsubstantiated.

One does not themselves have to have the answer to "Question X" in order to evaluate someone elses answer to "X" in other words. The claim there is a god or some kind of intentional intelligent creator for our universe is ___entirely___ unsubstantiated at this time. I am not required to explain the origins or existence of the universe in order to make that perfectly sound analysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
So much intellectual power and incredible, beautiful logic to attack 'nonsense'. Absolutely fascinating!
Such is the world we live in. When unsubstantiated nonsense permeates our halls of education, science, power and medicine then yes there is great utility and import in bring to bear the wealth of human intellect and the hammer blows of modernity to the subject in question.

Be it theistic god claims.... woo psychic power claims..... kooky alien abduction claims.... or actually harmful claims about the efficacy of things like homeopathy..... the sad case is that the world we live in is permeated by unsubstantiated nonsense and we would do well to make every move possible to alleviate that situation.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:41 AM
 
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nozzferrahhtoo.....................I think i spelled it right.

I really didn't want to argue theological points with you as such with my post. You seem like you want to 'win' a desperate war here. You've got sword and shield out. Looks like it's at the ready. I'm trying for a more let's say less attack mode approach. Read my original post. It's just a suggestion. You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe. Fair enough. Heck even Dawkins reads the Bible and likes it for it's 'literary' merit! I like that. He's got that lamp shining!

Quote:
Such is the world we live in. When unsubstantiated nonsense permeates our halls of education, science, power and medicine then yes there is great utility and import in bring to bear the wealth of human intellect and the hammer blows of modernity to the subject in question.
But nozzferahhtoo why do so many learned intellectuals throughout history study the problem you and I and many others struggle with? Certainly this 'nonsense' has been an itch that has no cure. It will itch for a long long long time. We are welcomed to God's and the Devil's playground!
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