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Old 09-26-2013, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,079 posts, read 18,589,435 times
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somebodynew
Quote:
Why assume fear? The human condition allows for a lot of motivations.
Because it will always be an element of those motivations.



Quote:
Is the converse, every impulse toward bad is an impulse to avoid good? Or does bad have a special place of value in its own right?
The impulse for bad is accompanied by the fear of the consequences of not being good. You find someone's wallet on the street and it has 300 dollars in cash in it. You could keep it, throw away the wallet and no one would ever know. You do not do this because you fear your own opinion of yourself if you did.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,079 posts, read 18,589,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post

As for this "good has no meaning apart from bad", that is hogwash. Appreciation and awareness of good can be enhanced by bad, I suppose. .
No, it is unwashed hog.

Think about it....if the concept of bad did not exist, then what would distinguish good from anything else? It would all be good. We need ugly to define beauty, we need long to define short, we need drunk to define sober, we need like to define dislike.

Keep in mind, these are not absolute things which have exist apart from human invention, good and evil are now and have always been...opinions, and as opinions, they are subject to alterations
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,091,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
No, it is unwashed hog.

Think about it....if the concept of bad did not exist, then what would distinguish good from anything else? It would all be good. We need ugly to define beauty, we need long to define short, we need drunk to define sober, we need like to define dislike.

Keep in mind, these are not absolute things which have exist apart from human invention, good and evil are now and have always been...opinions, and as opinions, they are subject to alterations
[sigh] Would you please address even one or two of the specific rebuttals that I took the time and effort to write in the quoted message? Otherwise all you're doing is re-making the same assertion.

Once you've done that I'm happy to respond further.
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:24 PM
 
12,540 posts, read 12,536,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
Can someone please explain why some Christians seem to think that atheists live an anything goes life?
Do they honestly think this? Is the only reason they aren't out raping and killing is that their book tells them it's bad?

I really don't understand this line of thinking.
They think that because they need to be told what to do on fear of eternal punishment or promise of reward, everyone else is similarly unable to use their own brains and sense of ethics to know right from wrong. Sheep need a shepherd and can't imagine life without one, so they assume the same of others. Heaven forbid, pun thoroughly intended, a human do what's right for the sake of doing what's right.

And how I loooooove proving them wrong. I love it when people say "Wait, you're an atheist? But you're so Christian-like."

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Old 09-26-2013, 12:39 PM
 
12,215 posts, read 9,900,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
somebodynew

Because it will always be an element of those motivations.
I don't buy it. Fear is the motivation of the beaten.

Quote:
The impulse for bad is accompanied by the fear of the consequences of not being good. You find someone's wallet on the street and it has 300 dollars in cash in it. You could keep it, throw away the wallet and no one would ever know. You do not do this because you fear your own opinion of yourself if you did.
YOU might.
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,079 posts, read 18,589,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
[sigh] Would you please address even one or two of the specific rebuttals that I took the time and effort to write in the quoted message? Otherwise all you're doing is re-making the same assertion.

Once you've done that I'm happy to respond further.
I address all that I view as relevant and ignore the rest. You have not provided anything which refutes my basic position.

And why are you acting this way today? "sheesh" and "hogwash" and "sigh"etc? That is out of character.

Explain how anything could be regarded as moral unless there is some choice involved between it and something else which you view as less moral or immoral?
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,079 posts, read 18,589,435 times
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Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I don't buy it. Fear is the motivation of the beaten.
.
Sounds like mystic wisdom, is that a quote from one of the Karate Kid movies or something?
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:10 PM
 
12,215 posts, read 9,900,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Sounds like mystic wisdom, is that a quote from one of the Karate Kid movies or something?
No way. It is a somebody original. But it is still truth. There is no reason in the world to think of fear as the basic operating motive unless one is too hurt and damaged to have experienced or recognized others.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,079 posts, read 18,589,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
There is no reason in the world to think of fear as the basic operating motive unless one is too hurt and damaged to have experienced or recognized others.
I have provided those reasons. That you have elected to pretend that they do not exist does not cause them to cease to exist. Nor have you provided me with any argument which causes me to suspect that fear is not an element in moral behavior.

I offered the example of you finding a wallet with 300 dollars in cash and returning it rather than keeping it. As much as it is goodness on your part that you returned it, it is also fear of how you would feel about yourself if you did not. Is that not true? If not, how can it not be true? is it your position that your moral decisions have nothing to do with your image of yourself?

Further, if you insist that you are returning the wallet purely out of goodness and it is unrelated to how you feel about yourself, then your returning it would not be a moral act, it would just be an act because you are eliminating any chance of it not happening, eliminating the choices involved....return or not return. What would be moral about doing something for which there was no alternative of immorality? How could you be generous if there was not also an opportunity to not be generous?
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:44 PM
 
10,026 posts, read 9,245,050 times
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I think some of the more radical atheists are immoral. On a Catholic site I got in trouble because I told an atheist they were despicable. They kept making jokes about abortion and many other Catholic views and one admitted she had several kids with a married man. Yes these atheists are immoral. Atheists in general no, but those online who are radical? yep usually.
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