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Old 09-28-2013, 12:52 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Atheism - Morality without superstition
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
It's really not a question of removing all suspense and drama, it's just a question of limiting the lower end of the range.
I do not see how it would be possible to limit the lower range without altering the entire scale of perceptions regarding what is moral/immoral.

Again, you are altering the hypothetical premise, not really eliminating immorality, but simply carving off some immorality found at the "lower end." Since my argument is that immorality is a required concept in our definition of morality, the assertion is that morality could not exist without it, not that morality could not exist if we tidy up some of our definitions at the lower end.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,089,205 times
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I do not see how it would be possible to limit the lower range without altering the entire scale of perceptions regarding what is moral/immoral.
Well, of course ... and for the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Again, you are altering the hypothetical premise, not really eliminating immorality, but simply carving off some immorality found at the "lower end." Since my argument is that immorality is a required concept in our definition of morality, the assertion is that morality could not exist without it, not that morality could not exist if we tidy up some of our definitions at the lower end.
Well, you are really attached to defining moral good in terms of the absence of suffering rather than suffering as the absence of moral good. To each their own. Maybe it doesn't matter. The only point I've ever tried to make is that suffering is ignoble, not noble, and that happiness and moral good do not require suffering, but are impeded by it. I don't see how your line of thinking will result in anything but people throwing up their hands and giving up on making the world a better place because by doing so they would be destroying good.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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mordant
Quote:
Well, you are really attached to defining moral good in terms of the absence of suffering rather than suffering as the absence of moral good.
Not correct, I have offered no such definitions. I am arguing that in the absence of the concept of immorality, the concept of morality would evaporate. I do not appear to be having much success getting you to understand this.

Doing good when there was no option but to do good, is not doing good, it is just doing. Doing good when you were in a position to escape doing that good, would be moral. To know what is moral, we must know what is not moral, we must have that opposing concept.

So, your behavior might be unaltered, you might do exactly the same amount of good that you do in the world as it is now, but within my hypothetical, you would not being doing anything which distinguished you from anyone or anything else, you would not be perceived as doing good.

And that is why you are in the wrong stadium here when you argue about how there would still be good things done, yes there would, but they would cease being viewed as good because there was never an option for bad.


Quote:
I don't see how your line of thinking will result in anything but people throwing up their hands and giving up on making the world a better place because by doing so they would be destroying good.
This wasn't advocacy, it was explanation. Even if I was for the elimination of the concept of immorality, I do not see how it could be done, nor have I argued that if it could be done, it should be done.
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Old 09-30-2013, 07:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Yes, it is quite clear that you did not understand what was written. If you did, you would not be writing the above yet again.
You not understanding my point is not the same as me failing to understand yours. If you had understood my posts on morality you would not have asked me to finish your nonsense sentence for you. My point is again quite clear: The moral compunction we have comes heavily from the fact that performing actions conducive to the kind of society we wish to live in is compatible with the building of that society. We judge such actions as "good" and anything that goes against them as "bad".

They are subjective labels of subjective opinions. There is no reason at this time to think there actually is an objective existing "Good" or "bad" or standard of same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Asking you a question is not putting words in your mouth, it is asking that you produce some words from your mouth.
Then ask one. Do not give me sentences and demand that I finish them for you.
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Old 09-30-2013, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,022 posts, read 18,583,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post



Then ask one. Do not give me sentences and demand that I finish them for you.
Fine. How would you finish that sentence?
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:03 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Fine. How would you finish that sentence?
I already said I would not be finishing your sentence for you. I am aghast at the rudeness involved in ignoring my entire post and asking me once again to finish it therefore.

I would not phrase the sentence that way at all, therefore I will not be finishing it.

Again my position is that we think actions are moral because they are conducive to the society we ourselves want to live in.

I do not give my seat to an old lady on a bus because of some sentence starting with "If I do not do it then.....". I do it because I want to live in, and support, a society where that is the kind of action that is perpetrated and considered moral.

I am still entirely failing to locate the aspect of that point that is proving so perennially impossible for you to understand. I am happy to keep working with you to identify the failure on your part however, but it will not be achieved by you demanding I talk in sentences constructed by you.
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