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Old 10-22-2013, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,110 posts, read 18,595,226 times
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hiker45
Quote:
Because you can't prove you are correct.
Well, of course. If either side could prove correctness, there wouldn't be any argument.

Well, there would still be those who would refuse to accept the proof no matter how unassailable it might be.

I think the only way to generate the peace you seek is to avoid forums which are devoted to discussing theological matters.

Quote:
Of course, if you are a Liberal, then you naturally believe that anyone who disagrees with you is a complete idiot, and a feeling of superiority in understandable
This sort of foolishness belongs on the politics board, not here.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,576,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan2008 View Post
I can't help but notice how believers use their faith as a security blanket of sorts. It's almost as if they can't function without their faith. It's kind of sad really. They can't meet life on it's own terms, which is actually a sign of maturity and courage. Then when their security blanket is questioned or challenged, it's like a child throwing a temper tantrum. Thoughts anyone???
I'll try to give an answer, best as I can as a "man of faith". Firstly I would like to point out that faith of some sort is common to everyone. When you walk into a room and take a seat in a chair that is there you are by that simple action expressing "Faith". You believe that chair has the ability to hold you up and will not let you crash to the floor when you sit on it. Life is full of faith in thousand of things and actions and without that faith you would most likely be locked up in a padded room. When you take a drink from that bottle of whatever, what makes you think it does not contain a poison that will kill you with one sip? You just believe it will be OK. You may not have any evidence at all proving it will and many people have been poisoned taking a sip from a bottle. You take that sip out of faith in something. That faith in something in the innumerable applications that get you through your day is your security blanket. Without it you could not function! Is that kind of sad? I would say not. It's a condition of existence and your life as you know it would be impossible with out this basic and general faith.

Now, the Christian is no different at all in this respect. Along with the general faith that is common to all people, the Christian also has a "Particular" faith. This particular faith is a belief and trust in God and his promises. Just as you have faith that the brakes of your car will stop you from being killed the next time you need to stop your car from being squashed by that semi bearing down on you I have faith that God will prevent me from being squashed, vanquished or destroyed by all the trials, tribulations, pain suffering and hurt I will experience in this world.

This faith, rather than being as you picture it as a flight from reality or a lack of courage or maturity actually defines those terms. The man of faith is a true realist. He knows the world as it is and not some wishful thinking of how it should be. HE CAN SUCCESSFULLY FACE ALL THE TRIALS THE WORLD THROWS AT HIM BECAUSE HE KNOWS HE WILL TRANSCEND AND UNYIMATELY BE VICTORIOUS, EVEN OVER DEATH!

Now, any Christian who finds difficulty dealing with those who scoff, malign, insult him, laugh at him, think him a fool or any other kind of disrespect is a Christian of very little faith, {if any}. You know, the ultimate aim of every Christian should be to be more and more like Jesus here in this world. If you are at all interested, then read in the bible how, the world" treated him. For his faith, they nailed him to a cross after they beat him to a pulp, even though they knew he was completely innocent. Did Jesus get angry or throw a tantrum as you claim people of faith do? He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". That is the absolute ultimate in courage and trust.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:44 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,092,754 times
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Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
The last thing a pastor wants to hear is "I'm not worried at all" ....
I had never thought of it in quite that way, but you are, of course, correct.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:55 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,092,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
OK, here is my point. I don't think it is nice to say that Theists need a "security blanket". That is a very demeaning comment.
I used to subscribe to that general sentiment, but I have come to believe "that which is ridiculous is worthy of ridicule". Theism has gotten a free pass for too long in this regard.

My stepson has OCD issues and gets himself vapor-locked over the most ridiculous things sometimes. He is minoring in French and during his sabbatical from college this year to regroup and get his s__t together in therapy, his mother and I are keeping him moving as best we can. One way I did that is sign us up for a local French speaker's meetup. The night came last night and he refused to go because he "hadn't had enough time to practice yet" -- for a meetup whose stated purpose was to welcome everyone from non-French-speaking curious on up to native speakers. This was a ridiculous, irrational, nonsensical excuse for refusing to go, and you can bet he got an earful from me. If he wants my respect and cares at all about what I think, he knows I think he was on this score, lazy, self-absorbed, cowardly, and duplicitous. Was that "nice"? No. Was it "demeaning"? Well, I kept it factual and did not shame him, but from a certain perspective, yes. The point is that without some tough love, this young man will sit on his hairy butt the whole year he's with us and will make zero progress. He has to accept that he must be uncomfortable and stretch himself, else by definition he will not change.

Similarly, until theists are deprived of their echo chamber circle-jerk environment, and have to operate by the same real-world rules as everyone else, until they feel that discomfort, there is no hope at all for them. It is a tap dance -- just as it is with my stepson -- if people choose their misery, to some extent that is their right. And yet compassion demands, sometimes, that they are denied the respect and other benefits that should only accrue to someone who has earned it honestly. The street corner wino should not be abused, but neither should he be honored for his dissipation. As an atheist I will not kick a theist for sport, but neither will I enable them.
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:05 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,837 posts, read 19,927,191 times
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If there is a plane full of bible hugging passengers in a plane piloted by an atheist and the motors go kerplunk, will the plane crash?
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:18 AM
 
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
8,820 posts, read 6,368,254 times
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not if the deity steps in!! planes crash everyday, some are piloted by atheists
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Florida
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'" Rev. Rick Cruz, one of the church's pastors, told reporters afterward. "At the church, we've just had a gathering of prayer in which much of the church family came together and just gave thanks to our God..........."This is a time of difficulty," he said. "But we trust in God. We trust that he is fair always, and so all your prayers are appreciated at this time."
Eight killed, 14 injured as church bus overturns in Tennessee - U.S. News

That sure would give me a feeling of security.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Florida
4,513 posts, read 3,920,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I'll try to give an answer, best as I can as a "man of faith". Firstly I would like to point out that faith of some sort is common to everyone. When you walk into a room and take a seat in a chair that is there you are by that simple action expressing "Faith". You believe that chair has the ability to hold you up and will not let you crash to the floor when you sit on it. Life is full of faith in thousand of things and actions and without that faith you would most likely be locked up in a padded room. When you take a drink from that bottle of whatever, what makes you think it does not contain a poison that will kill you with one sip? You just believe it will be OK. You may not have any evidence at all proving it will and many people have been poisoned taking a sip from a bottle. You take that sip out of faith in something. That faith in something in the innumerable applications that get you through your day is your security blanket. Without it you could not function! Is that kind of sad? I would say not. It's a condition of existence and your life as you know it would be impossible with out this basic and general faith.
You are confusing 'faith' with 'reliability'. Knowing the way the world works - the rules, the use of objects, the social norms - are not faith, they are sociology.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,116,499 times
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Similarly, until theists are deprived of their echo chamber circle-jerk environment, and have to operate by the same real-world rules as everyone else, until they feel that discomfort, there is no hope at all for them.
It seems to me that Theists already "have to operate by the same real-world rules as everyone else".

The Theists I know have to work for a living just like I used to. If their car breaks down they need to get it fixed, and they die just like you and I will.

Some of them appear to be happy and some aren't. They live their lives without hurting me. I don't understand why you would say "there is no hope at all for them". Sure, they won't have that afterlife they want. but they seem to deal with the real world just fine.
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,092,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
It seems to me that Theists already "have to operate by the same real-world rules as everyone else".

The Theists I know have to work for a living just like I used to. If their car breaks down they need to get it fixed, and they die just like you and I will.

Some of them appear to be happy and some aren't. They live their lives without hurting me. I don't understand why you would say "there is no hope at all for them". Sure, they won't have that afterlife they want. but they seem to deal with the real world just fine.
I am referring to the fact that you or I cannot assert any random thing without having to prove it -- to provide some kind of credibility. Theists -- or at least churches -- want the freedom to make assertions, not just to themselves, but to the world at large -- and they want a social taboo that forbids that anyone should have the temerity to question or doubt those assertions; if they encounter the least need to actually reason, they will accuse a doubter of being disrespectful, nasty, and hateful. There is a default assumption that doubt is evil when in fact it's a Good Thing.

Since Christianity (for example) can only survive through convincing others to have the same beliefs, there is no way faith can ultimately be purely a private, live-and-let-live matter. Very few compartments of Christianity are content for people to come to them. Frankly, the value proposition isn't compelling enough to sustain Christianity in the total absence of proselytization on the one hand, or a system of taboos and strictures to stem outflow of adherents on the other hand. Both proselytization and demands of fealty are harmful to people.

Any one tenet of faith in any particular human life can have zero, negative, or positive impacts on the degree to which that person can productively engage with reality and with society at large. It depends on how it's framed, the individual's personality and mental health, and an interplay of a host of other factors. I don't deny that individual Christians can willingly stay in the faith, have little to no interest in gaining new converts apart from someone making an active inquiry, and lead fairly well adapted and even admirable lives in general society. This doesn't change that a lot of Christians are tormented souls precisely because of their Christianity, and/or, are insufferable arrogant louts who would like nothing better than to impose their fantasy of a Christian theocracy on the rest of the world -- often as an excuse for bigotry and intolerance. It also doesn't change that the nice people you're talking about would be that way for the most part with or without the trappings of faith. They are good people anyway. Faith and niceness can be associated with one another frequently, but it's not a causative relationship. It simply reflects that most people mean well and try to do well, and manage to remain pretty much that way even when barnacled with the excess baggage of magical thinking.

I have no more quarrel than you with your hypothetical content Christian who is just getting along as best they can. With the system as a whole, though, I think it is time for the fake legitimacy conferred upon those particular ideas to come to an end. They need to sink or swim on their own merits. This has cause me to do a lot less walking on eggshells and to be much more straightforward and matter of fact than I was raised and socialized to be. As an evangelical, there was nothing more awful than not being genteel and deferential to the most laughable ideas imaginable. That spilled over into my personal life, making me so conflict-averse (actually disapproval-averse) that it was hard to have authentic and uncomplicated relationships. I no longer see an advantage in according random ideas a total free pass.

Fortunately from your point of view, in the real world, outside these fora, we mostly don't "get into it" in practice anyway. If someone identifies themselves to me as a Christian, I am not a toad touche about it and make incredulous dismissive faces and automatically take them down 10 notches in my estimation. It is only when someone argues a case as if there were any rational basis for it that I will not accord them the deference that they crave. I can't remember the last time that actually happened in meatspace, though. This forum is a bit of a special case environment where people come specifically for the purpose of debate.
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