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Old 10-27-2013, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
I don't need evidence to know that two plus two equals 4

but what you know and what you feel are two different things
I assume your point is essentially, "I don't need evidence to know that 2+2=4, therefore, I don't need evidence to know that god exists, I just need to feel that he does." This is a false equivalency. We don't "feel" that 2+2=4, we have a consistent shared experience that this is so , enough to build entire technologies atop it and rely on them to keep people safe and alive. With god, however, even a particular god, we have people utterly convinced, utterly unconvinced, and everything in between, and such a lack of shared experience that we have thousands of denominations within Christianity alone, and > 4000 religions worldwide depending on how you choose to count them. Whereas no one has to debate what 2+2 equals -- and no one seriously does.
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:03 PM
 
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I didn't say anything about God. We were talking about faith

if you want to talk about God I already have another thread about that

you should take the conversation there
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Dallas,Texas
1,378 posts, read 1,468,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
The longer I am without religion and its attributes, the longer and the more I count on myself. In the end that's the only person you can count on and completely trust. Get to know yourself and value your positive and try to better your negative traits. That's all the security blanket you need to get through. It may sound selfish to some who are cult followers but that's how the cookie crumbles. You can decide what's acceptable behavior and what's not, by going by your instincts and following your own inner "voice". It's not superior to feel you don't need fairytales and fake beings to guide you and keep you warm. In the end you live alone and die alone. Nothing sad about that, it's just real. In the meantime make the best of it for you and those you care about and come in contact with, no matter how brief.
Nice words. I like what you wrote.
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Dallas,Texas
1,378 posts, read 1,468,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I assume your point is essentially, "I don't need evidence to know that 2+2=4, therefore, I don't need evidence to know that god exists, I just need to feel that he does." This is a false equivalency. We don't "feel" that 2+2=4, we have a consistent shared experience that this is so , enough to build entire technologies atop it and rely on them to keep people safe and alive. With god, however, even a particular god, we have people utterly convinced, utterly unconvinced, and everything in between, and such a lack of shared experience that we have thousands of denominations within Christianity alone, and > 4000 religions worldwide depending on how you choose to count them. Whereas no one has to debate what 2+2 equals -- and no one seriously does.
Great stuff there mordant. Especially about the different experiences people have. More evidence that God is just an idea in individual brains that are influenced by biological and psychological factors. Like I have always said, the God of the Bible must have a lousy marketing and public relations department because he / she/ it can't even get it's creation on the same page. Quite telling I say.
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
I didn't say anything about God. We were talking about faith

if you want to talk about God I already have another thread about that

you should take the conversation there
The whole point of faith is that it is the basis of belief in god. It is hard to talk about faith separately from god because strictly speaking it has no other uses. We speak of faith in our friends, spouse, government, and other persons and organizations that we feel have our backs, but that is more trust based on actual consistent experience with things that can be seen and observed and assessed accordingly, than just blind trust in an asserted interpretation of a being no one has ever seen (and by some accounts, no one can see and live).

You seem to be evading an actual discussion though, so no matter. I haven't seen you actually address a single point I raised. Your method of debate seems to be hit-and-run assertion, repeated over and over, with no real engagement. Where have I seen this before?
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan2008 View Post
Great stuff there mordant. Especially about the different experiences people have. More evidence that God is just an idea in individual brains that are influenced by biological and psychological factors. Like I have always said, the God of the Bible must have a lousy marketing and public relations department because he / she/ it can't even get it's creation on the same page. Quite telling I say.
Lousy marketing and PR and communication and research and editorial staff, cheesy production values and not that creative either. Kinda suspicious that god didn't lead the way with concepts like "human slavery is bad" or "how to build a lightning rod" or "women are not chattel" -- but lo and behold all his ideas are consistent with what people knew 2,000 plus years ago. No punishment is in order if beat your slave so long as he doesn't die within 24 hours of the beating; god sends thunder; women are to keep silent in church and let the men speak and for god's sake don't touch their menstrual rags, which by the way are a disgusting metaphor for how god regards the good works of unbelievers. Give me a break ...
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:48 PM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,919,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
you are equating faith with believing what you want to believe without evidence.
But that's only half the picture.

One can also know that something must be true yet still lack faith in it in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
In such a case having faith is the only rational thing to do.

I know that 2+2=4 and I have faith that it always does and yet, bizarrely, there are people on the internet that seem not to be sure that it always does
It depends on the number base you are using. In base 3, 2 + 2 = 11, In base 4, 2 + 2 = 10.
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Old 10-27-2013, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
It depends on the number base you are using. In base 3, 2 + 2 = 11, In base 4, 2 + 2 = 10.
Well I won't gang up on granpa on this one, I think we can assume he's talking about base 10. Besides 11 in base 3 and 10 in base 4 both EQUAL 4 in base 10, so it's all good.
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Old 10-27-2013, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,113 posts, read 18,599,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Well I won't gang up on granpa on this one, I think we can assume he's talking about base 10. Besides 11 in base 3 and 10 in base 4 both EQUAL 4 in base 10, so it's all good.
Humans use base ten because we wound up with ten digits on our hands. Perhaps granpa is like former Braves pitcher Antonio Alfonseca who had six digits on each hand (he was twice as good as Mordecai Brown). We could further postulate that granpa had something of a rural raising and was largely self educated, and his self taught math is base 12.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
They may be entirely different and often are. Induction is the derivation of probabilistic general principles from specific facts. It can, but does not necessarily, involve subjective feelings.

I don't see how this changes the nature of faith and the probabilities that can be generated from it. It is still belief without evidence, and in my experience does not provide strong evidence for a useful conclusion of inductive thinking about which we can have any confidence. I can't, for instance, see justification for the same level of confidence in either a general or specific god-belief that is equivalent to the level of confidence I can have that, say, my wife will be faithful to me as she has been in the past or any number of other not-totally-provable hypotheses that I rely on from day to day.
faith isnt belief without evidence.
but I will grant you that faith is belief without empirical evidence
as they say: faith comes from hearing (as opposed to empirically seeing)

inductive reasoning (and massive parallel processing in the brain) can produce valid beliefs that are impossible to prove empirically.
inductive reasoning can't tell you whether a given idea is true or not, but if used properly, it does tell you whether that idea is reasonable or not.
Occam's razor states that the most reasonable possibility tends to be the correct one
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