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Old 11-03-2013, 05:04 PM
 
608 posts, read 531,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roscomac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by roscomac

In answer to your question, I don't have a concept of a god. I grew up with a Southern Baptist concept of a god being an infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent being/creator that has existed everywhere and at all times. Now I find that a concept of a god is the concept of the god one believes to exist. Humans do not have a concept first and then find the god. I do not believe in a god, so I have not developed a concept of what one would be for me.

Thank you, dear roscomac, you have presented the concept of God as you put it:

Quote:
I grew up with a Southern Baptist concept of a god being an infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent being/creator that has existed everywhere and at all times.

I understand perfectly that you don't have a concept of God that is from your own thinking on reason and intelligence.

The concept of God as you presented is the one you grew up with.

Please forgive me, but have you done thinking on reason and intelligence on that concept of God you grew up with, and now if I may assume, you have rejected and also the God represented in that concept?

May I assume that you are familiar with important texts of the Christian faith, foremost is the Apostles' Creed and for our purpose here also the text from Genesis 1:1?

I don't want to bring in the Bible and pristine Christian doctrinal statements, but just to talk between you and me on the basis of thinking on reason and intelligence; however, since you bring up the concept of God you grew up with, which is in a Christian denomination or may I call a church, you must have been acquainted with this first statement of the Apostles' Creed:
I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
This declaration of the concept of God as the creator of heaven and earth is reminiscent of Genesis 1:1:
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.

My concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to man and the physical universe is that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge
Here is my concept of God:
In concept God for myself as a theist of the Christian faith, in His relation to man and the physical universe God is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

So, may I propose that we put together the two concepts, the one from yours truly and the one with which you grew up, and place the Apostles' Creed verse 1 and Genesis 1:1 as source reference from the history of Christian doctrines, thus:
[a] In His relation to man and the physical universe God is the creator of everything that is not God Himself,
[b] this implicates that God is a being infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent being/creator that has existed everywhere and at all times. Cf. Apostles' Creed verse 1 and Genesis 1:1.

You see, I am a theist who maintain that faith statements must be examined by our thinking on reason and intelligence.

So, forgive me, atheists and also fellow theists of the Christian faith, I invite everyone to consider first the concept of God from thinking by man on reason and intelligence in [a], and the examination by our thinking again on reason and intelligence on its implications in Christian writings in [b].

It is in [b] that atheists want to make a lot of, pointing out God's attributes result in God being absurd.

But they do not take into account that [b] must be examined on [a].


Namely, however much you want to make of the writings of Christians to the effect that God is infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent being/creator that has existed everywhere and at all times, and draw the inference that God is an absurd entity, all that supposedly inference is founded on human measures and human selective extrapolations.

From thinking on reason and intelligence we come to the concept of God: in [a] In His relation to man and the physical universe God is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

This the concept of God I invite atheists to consider by thinking on reason and intelligence.

We are not yet into the existence of God in the actual objective reality of existence, but just into the thinking phase, dealing within the realm of concepts in our mind.

Of course theists know that God objectively exists even without a human thinking about the concept of God; it is only for the exercise of formulating the concept, and then going forth in the actual objective existence of things to search for evidence of an entity which meets the concept, namely, in His relation to man and the physical universe God is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.



Summing up: Please, dear atheists, can we start with the concept that in His relation to man and the physical universe God is the creator of everything that is not God Himself?

That I submit is the genuinely reasonable and intelligent way of thinking on the concept of God, and then searching for evidence in objective reality for such an objectively existing entity corresponding to the concept.



Ryrge
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:13 PM
 
608 posts, read 531,157 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post

[...]

There is no point in trying to nail down an atheist on the concept of god. We will discuss whichever one you put forth. Part of that discussion may include a critique of the validity or meaningfullness of the underlying god hypothesis, but that is a reasonable portion of the discussion.

[...]

With all earnestness and humility, and please if you should feel that I am into arrogance, please do not feel that way.

You uttered a categorical declaratory statement:
We will discuss whichever one [concept of God] you put forth.

So, with the greatest of welcome to your proposal, please take up my concept of God in His relation to man and the physical universe, He is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.




Ryrge
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,102,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
May I in all earnestness and humility request from you your present concept of God from your present thinking on reason and intelligence as an atheist today.
It is pretty much what I presented in the quoted post -- the short version is that I do not believe in any god(s) at all, and I regard those who believe in god(s) as mostly projecting their own ideas and wishes and hopes and dreams an aspirations as their god. Since it is a lot of trouble for each individual to come up with their own god, their own back-story and mythology, they will generally adopt the god that they were born into, and perhaps later in life, may switch to some other pre-fabricated god that is more pleasing to them.

So you could say, I suppose, that I believe that other people's gods are their own wishful thinking. I do not personally have a god to even define.
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Old 11-03-2013, 06:00 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,254,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
So, with the greatest of welcome to your proposal, please take up my concept of God in His relation to man and the physical universe, He is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.
Ok, so lets be clear. Is this your entire definition of God? If we are going to look at something logically, we must define our terms concretely for the duration of the specific discussion...

If this is your complete God hypothesis, can you explain what observations led you to it, and how it might be falsified? If it cannot be falsified, then we cannot determine its truth. Likewise if you take logically flawed premises as axioms, we cannot determine the truth.

Now if I anticipate your responses, I can come up with several issues, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. There is no point critiquing an idea that has not been put forth.

-NoCapo
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:07 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,289,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
I have not read the whole thread yet, but I like to ask atheists to first come forth with your concept of what is God.
A useless approach. The only concept of "god" that is important is the one from the person who actually claims such an entity exists. The onus of definition AND evidence lies squarely and SOLELY at the feet of the person saying there is a god.

So if you think there is a god then you tell us what "god" means. What we think it means is irrelevant.

If held to the wall however and a definition demanded of me I define "god" as "A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe".

Alas the theist world has failed at EVERY turn to even present an iota of even a scrap of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to lend even a modicum of credence to the idea such an entity exists.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:05 AM
 
2,826 posts, read 1,869,434 times
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Quote:
"A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe".
Uhhh. By your definition, you just proved God exists.

Quote:
A non human intelligence...
We cannot prove this part. Humans cannot know anything about the nature of God. Since we cannot see or hear God, we can only know the symptoms of such.

Quote:
responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe
We can prove this part, by working from paradox.

If such a thing (intelligent or not, human or not) created the universe and maintained it, that thing is God. If that's not true, you must revise the definition.

If no such thing created the universe, then how is there a universe? If no such thing maintained the universe, then how has the Big Crunch not happened? Or Absolute Zero? Or any number of other massive entropy collapses?

That, is a paradox. X cause does not exist, therefore Y effect exists. Water comes from stormclouds, a spring, or tap. It does not come from midair with no surrounding moisture.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:20 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,289,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Uhhh. By your definition, you just proved God exists.
No. I did not. But feel free to explain how you think I did.

Once again my definition of god is an "intelligence" that created and/or maintains the universe. Have you any thing at all that substantiates the idea there is such an intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Humans cannot know anything about the nature of God. Since we cannot see or hear God, we can only know the symptoms of such.
Do not only are you making up that there is a god out of nowhere. You are making up excuses why substantiation for your claim will not be forthcoming. Typical.

There either is argument, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest there is a god.... or there is not. Which is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
If no such thing created the universe, then how is there a universe?
You seem to assume that there being "no universe" is the default and that we therefore have to explain why there is one. Why make that assumption? Why is assuming that the existence of it is not the default? In fact in another thread you do suggest you believe existence has always existed. A fact that would, if true, negate any requirement for a god at all.

All we know is that there is a universe and we are contained ín it. We have nothing whatsoever to even begin to substantiate the notion that an intelligence created it.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,102,293 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Humans cannot know anything about the nature of God. Since we cannot see or hear God, we can only know the symptoms of such.
I do not recall your particular beliefs, or whether you have articulated them, but clearly you can't be a Biblical literalist or a believer in Tri-Omni God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Water comes from stormclouds, a spring, or tap. It does not come from midair with no surrounding moisture.
And now that we know that we do not claim that it comes from god.

We do not fully know where somethings, like the universe, came from, and we do not claim that it comes from god until we either can show that or, as we've done for rain -- we will perhaps show it comes from something else.

Atheists from 1000 years ago would not have had an explanation for where rain comes from either, and your great-great-great-great-x grandfather would have been berating them for it: rain exists, therefore god. Now you are here saying the universe exists, therefore god.

Carry on.
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:26 AM
 
29 posts, read 38,671 times
Reputation: 32
Crom
He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,190 posts, read 18,614,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormbow View Post
Crom
He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?
Plus he gave us the riddle of steel.
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