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Old 11-04-2013, 12:08 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge
May I in all earnestness and humility request from you your present concept of God from your present thinking on reason and intelligence as an atheist today.
It is pretty much what I presented in the quoted post -- the short version is that I do not believe in any god(s) at all, and I regard those who believe in god(s) as mostly projecting their own ideas and wishes and hopes and dreams an aspirations as their god. Since it is a lot of trouble for each individual to come up with their own god, their own back-story and mythology, they will generally adopt the god that they were born into, and perhaps later in life, may switch to some other pre-fabricated god that is more pleasing to them.

So you could say, I suppose, that I believe that other people's gods are their own wishful thinking. I do not personally have a god to even define.

Please forgive me, but I get the impression that you are overly cautious, I am asking you to present what you know, mind you not that you believe it whatever to exist, to be the concept of God in say the Christian faith, according to your own information and put in words which are legible and intelligible.

I regret to inform you that up to now you have not presented what you have of information of what is the concept of God in the Christian faith.

Forgive me, but why all this fear that I might trick you into a trap that you cannot get out anymore?

What kind of trap would that be, may I just ask?

Please, I beg the pardon of all atheists who do take part in forum discussions, why are you all, all the time, always so very cautious with your writing as though you are walking in a land-mined field when you talk with me a theist.


Tell me then, what tricks have you been trapped into that you cannot get out, from theists with the exchange of thinking with them?


I write this post in all sincerity and honesty, not to trick you in any way; if you feel that I have tricked you, then tell me, and we will see how my trick had been done and you had fallen into it and could not get out anymore.


Okay, if I may assume that you do have information about the concept of God in the Christian faith, please do present it now, no more if I may use the word, dodging, all the time.

And as a favor for the sake of concise but still clear and substance writing, present what you have of the information on the concept of God in the Christian faith in as few words as you can master, for example, by presenting what you work out to be the essence of the concept.

That is what I do all the time, my concept of God in the Christian faith according to what I consider to be its essential substance is the following:
In relation to man and the physical universe God in the Christian faith is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

I fear that some atheists will complain right away that I have changed my concept of God with the above now description of God, which is not verbatim from what I had presented in previous posts.

Okay, then don't give attention to the present description, and just go to my immediately for some posts already presented concept of God from me, namely:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge
Here is my concept of God:
In concept God for myself as a theist of the Christian faith, in His relation to man and the physical universe God is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

Okay, please, do get to know first what is the information you know or can know by reading Christian texts of the concept of God, then present it in your next post, concisely but still legible and intelligible.


And, oh please, please, I am not into arrogance, I am just trying to connect with you atheists here, and I am, forgive me, having a very hard time, because you give me the impression that you are as though walking in a heavily land-mined field.


And no, I am not trying to bring you to the Christian faith or to bring you back to the Christian faith, honestly I am -- and you might be again offended because I am so arrogant it seems to you, I am just trying to get you to do thinking with me.



Ryrge
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:51 PM
 
624 posts, read 902,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
....

How would we know if we had at last met a god...or met the god of gods? What could satisfy you as unassailable proof of a god rather than an extremely advanced alien magician?
It's a tough call. I guess that if Gods exist and they want to be known, they should know what would constitute proofs of their existence to us.
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:52 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,250,975 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
Please forgive me, but I get the impression that you are overly cautious, I am asking you to present what you know, mind you not that you believe it whatever to exist, to be the concept of God in say the Christian faith, according to your own information and put in words which are legible and intelligible.

I regret to inform you that up to now you have not presented what you have of information of what is the concept of God in the Christian faith.
Why is this important? If we present a definition that you disagree with, then it sidetracks the argument into a theological discussion of a god we don't believe in, which it as pointless to us as arguing about the biology of leprechauns.

The important thing is to discuss your ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
Please, I beg the pardon of all atheists who do take part in forum discussions, why are you all, all the time, always so very cautious with your writing as though you are walking in a land-mined field when you talk with me a theist.
Bluntly? A great many of you argue dishonestly, don't actually evaluate a counter argument, and run away when you feel that you are not "winning". If you are not like that, then that is great. Simply continue to make your argument, and let's discuss it. All this manuvering to try to make atheists take a theological position on what God is like smells like something other than an honest discussion. It feels like you have an apologetics playbook in front of you and are trying to follow specific steps without listening to the people you are engaging. We have explained numreous times why what you are asking is silly. Can you explain why you need us to nail down a concrete definition of God for you? We have agreed to discuss yours, why is that insufficient?

If you want to have a real discussion, listening to what we are saying would be a good start.

Lay out what you believe god to be, the reasons you believe it, and what would falsify that concept, and then we can talk about it. Otherwise you are asking us to guess what you believe, which is a really inefficient way to have a discussion...


-NoCapo
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:57 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,487 times
Reputation: 33
Thank you for your information; is that all right with you, information from you about God from your information, mind you I am not into insisting that you believe in the concept as per your information, nor and much less that you accept the existence of such an entity corresponding to your information of the concept.

Quote:
If held to the wall however and a definition demanded of me I define "god" as "A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe".
So, to be brief, your information on the concept of God is:

Quote:
"A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe."

I accept that your information is correct.


Now, how do you want to work with me to come to concurrence on how we are to pinpoint the objective entity in the physical universe, or I may, in the totality of existence for such an entity as per your information on its concept, and I accept it also, namely:

Quote:
"A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe."
I ask you how you would want us two to proceed to work out how, etc., because otherwise if I right away present what I suggest would be my proposal etc. some atheists will immediately shout, arrogance, arrogance, arrogance, and thereby I am under pressure to try to convince them and readers here that I am not arrogant, and on and on and on, while the search for the entity that corresponds to our mutually agreed on concept of God is effectively forgotten.

Okay, please, give me a suggestion how we are going to work together to map out a plan for the purpose of locating the entity corresponding to our now agreed on concept of God, namely:

Quote:
"A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe."


With all due respect, from your humble corresponding poster,
Ryrge
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:13 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,487 times
Reputation: 33
Please forgive me, I forgot to quote the poster I am responding to in my immediately preceding message.

It is in reply to:

Quote:
[In post #95]

Yesterday, 05:07 PM
Nozzferrahhtoo
Senior Member


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge
I have not read the whole thread yet, but I like to ask atheists to first come forth with your concept of what is God.
[...]

If held to the wall however and a definition demanded of me I define "god" as "A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe".


[...]


Okay, dear Nozz, let us we together go forth in the universe or if I may, in the totality of existence to look for the entity which I call God and you have the information on its concept which I also accept, namely:

Quote:
"A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe."

Do you have any suggestion how we are to work on a plan to search for this entity that corresponds to the concept of God which you and I have the information on? [See above].



So, dear atheists here, if you will join us two, you are welcome.



Ryrge
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:30 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,487 times
Reputation: 33
Okay, I am waiting for Nozz to tell me what plan he has for how to search for God as per the concept we have agreed on.

If you other atheists here will join us, you are welcome.


So, I will for the present abstain from replying to your posts, because I have already someone who has the information on the concept of God which I accept and we therefore are agreed on; and wherefore we can already set forth to look for such an entity corresponding to the concept.


However, if you have ideas on how to search for such an entity as corresponds to the concept of God concurred on by Hozz and myself, please do present them.

You see, dear atheists here, this is my idea, that first we work to come to concurrence on what is the concept of God, then when we have concurred on such a concept we will go forth and look for the entity corresponding to the concept.

What do you think about this idea, namely: first in the realm of thinking, of concepts in our minds, work for the agreed on concept, and then in the realm of actual objective existence, go forth and look for the entity corresponding to the concept.

It is like we are looking for a treasure, but before we proceed we must come to concurrence on what the treasure in concept is, then we will go forth and look for the treasure.

If we keep on and on and on disagreeing on the concept, then we must still work out on the grounds why in effect there is an impasse.

Now, from my part, I would without arrogance hazard the suggestion that humans come to an impasse owing to rational grounds or psychological grounds, or both rational and psychological grounds.



Ryrge
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:32 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,250,975 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post

Okay, dear Nozz, let us we together go forth in the universe or if I may, in the totality of existence to look for the entity which I call God and you have the information on its concept which I also accept, namely:

Do you have any suggestion how we are to work on a plan to search for this entity that corresponds to the concept of God which you and I have the information on? [See above].

First let me say that I think Nozz will agree with me here that as the proponent of a hypothesis, it is your burden to lay out your evidence, and how you plan to show such evidence, not the job of the skeptic..

But, since you are clearly reluctant to do so, I would point out that you can't even get that far! You definition of god is totally untestable, because there is quite simply not enough information. For example, by your definition, god could have ceased to exist in the creation of the universe, or he could still exist but not interact in any way with his creation. God could be a force, god could be a mathematical construct. By your definition, god could be entirely naturalistic. You need much more specificity in your god-model if you want to test it.

Any of the god-models that postulate a dead god, or a completely non-interventionist god are entirely indistinguishable from a model with no god. There simply is no way to test that, so generally speaking we pick the simplest explanation, also known as Ockham's Razor. In these cases the existence of a god ( at some point in "time") would be entirely irrelevant... It is essentially the same argument against solipsism. We cannot know that the world we experience is real, but assuming so gives us reasonably a reasonable good way to understand and predict the world around us. Likewise, if the choice is between a god explanation with no predictive or explanatory power, and mathematical models that allow us to learn, to predict, to simulate, and and to model reality, it seems clear that the god model is a poor choice.

-NoCapo
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
1,647 posts, read 3,008,753 times
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Do you have any suggestion how we are to work on a plan to search for this entity that corresponds to the concept of God which you and I have the information on?

Who is searching? You believe you have found this entity. We have no reason to believe such an entity exists. Since you have come to this forum, you must have hopes of showing us the entity. Please proceed. Long, repetitive posts filled with apologies and delays are not moving us forward. Get on with it.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,670,663 times
Reputation: 1698
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormbow View Post
Crom
He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?

Conan the Barbarian - Conan's Prayer to Crom: ...all that matters is that two stood against many... - YouTube

GRANT ME REVENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:44 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,487 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
First let me say that I think Nozz will agree with me here that as the proponent of a hypothesis, it is your burden to lay out your evidence, and how you plan to show such evidence, not the job of the skeptic..

[..]


Okay, very good, NoC, first lay out the evidence.

Now, please do not accuse me of arrogance, shall we you and I and Nozz first work to come to a concept of evidence that is acceptable to us all, otherwise what each one will bring forth as evidence others will insist that it is not evidence.

Would you allow me to be the first to present my concept of evidence, or you will be the first one to present what is your concept of evidence.

As soon and no sooner as we have concurred on what is evidence, then we can go forth and look for the evidence, which evidence will lead us to God as per the concept Nozz and I agree on.


By the way, NoC, forgive me, but do you agree to the concept we two Nozz and I concur on about the concept of God:

Quote:
"A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe."

If you don't accept that concept, please present one, I mean your information on the concept of God by folks who do accept the existence of God.

Please, no more about impossible to produce a concept, etc., etc., etc.

If you insist in effect that it is impossible to produce a concept, then what kind of a God are you objecting to or denying to exist?




Okay, Noc, choose what is your contribution to this thread:
1. Present your information on what is the concept of God you know to be the one according to which God exists, with folks who know God exists.

2. What is your concept of evidence?

You see, and forgive me, you are in effect not getting connected because you bring forth nothing but all negativity, against the possibility at all of man's knowing that there exists God as the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

That is the impasse between you and me, the way I see it: you insist in effect no concept of God is possible, so for you, yourself don't know what you are objecting to or denying to exist, because you don't have any concept of it at all.

On my part I not only know that the concept of God is possible and it is this which is agreed on between Nozz and myself:

Quote:
"A non human intelligence responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe."

As you know already your position, which I think I get it correctly, there cannot be any possible concept of God, period.

Thank you just the same for reading the posts in this thread on:
What Would Constitute Proof Of God?
And forgive me: yes, I know I am not the author of this thread, but at the risk of being accused of arrogance, I find it to be most useful for all folks: theists and atheists and whoever else to go into in order to analyze everything involved in the existence of God, from concept to objective reality.

And I am into it for the purpose of seeing where my thinking on reason and intelligence will get me, and also others here who uphold the idea of thinking on reason and intelligence as a most sensible manner to get to truths and facts.



Back to my request to you:

Please present your answer to one or the other of these two items below or both of them:
1. Present your information on what is the concept of God you know to be the one according to which God exists, with folks who know God exists.

2. What is your concept of evidence?




Ryrge
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