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Old 10-24-2013, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
That would establish an entity powerful enough to influence/control (or however that works) human thoughts, but would you be simultaneously satisfied that this is also the creator of all things?

Of course we also have to contend with possibility that this entity could plant the idea that it is the creator in our brains, without necessarily being the creator.
In practical terms I don't see a way to unravel all the denominational flux of the past couple millennia. The original bronze-age source documents are too deeply flawed, too subject to random interpretations, too ambiguous. That the Bible is the basis of the Abrahamic faiths is already a fundamentally fatal flaw. A loving, benevolent, all powerful god could have and would have done way better.

So my statements were somewhat tongue in cheek. My real point is that it would take way more than a few flashy miracles to validate the Christian god and differentiate the being working those miracles from just an all powerful being messing with us. The example I gave of universally and unquivocallly establishing the True Faith in a way that was unmistakable, would be way better. But it would still fall short, as you suggest. Even the claim that "this is what I meant all along and that you poor misguided fools have perverted" still begs the question, why didn't you correct this long ago, or prevent it in the first place?" Because in the meantime, countless billions have suffered and likely fallen into eternal torment.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:14 PM
 
Location: NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Those were the problems I had in mind when I asked the question.

It might be that the only way to affirm a god would be if you were also a god, one which is outside the manipulative influence of any other.
What I'm saying is I don't think we would realize the thoughts "were placed there by something" as opposed to our own. So that may very well make us all believe. And if some being had the ability to make all humans think and act like they wanted to I would probably have no issue in defining that being as a "god".

Now I realize that in no way is answering the question about "proof of god".
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: The Big O
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I think it would take god actually physically making his presence known or talking to me inside my head. Even then I'd probably think I'd gone crazy and had some kind of David Icke experience.
But if God had shown himself regularly to all, then it would seem like a normal thing to everyone and you would not think that you'd gone crazy.
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Old 10-24-2013, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Data1000 View Post
But if God had shown himself regularly to all, then it would seem like a normal thing to everyone and you would not think that you'd gone crazy.
Well I guess so yes if there were multiple people involved - except I could be having hallucinations that he's spoken to all of them too. There are endless possibilities with these imaginary scenarios. Anyway, lets face it - its never going to happen.


Must be very disappointing for all these people who are convinced god has spoken to them. David Icke (from my home country) almost seemed convincing at one point, and obviously he was very convinced himself that god had spoken to him, that he was the next son of god, about prophesies about Kent falling into the ocean, volcanoes erupting, armageddon and so on. But none of them came true. I wonder what you do then?
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Old 10-24-2013, 02:42 PM
 
Location: The Big O
590 posts, read 664,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
... he was very convinced himself that god had spoken to him, that he was the next son of god, about prophesies about Kent falling into the ocean, volcanoes erupting, armageddon and so on. But none of them came true. I wonder what you do then?
Perhaps proclaim the good news that he and god have decided to be merciful and hold off on the volcanos...............for now.
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:39 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
The standard position of atheists is that the theists assert and declare, but do so in the absence of evidence or proof that a god, or the god, exists. "Show us the proof" we write....but...

We have Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

So, even if there was a sudden global wide display of an entity which is capable of performing things we believe outside natural law, would that be god or would it just be an entity with abilities outside of our understanding? If some alien entity made the stars in the night sky move about and spell out "I am your god", would that be sufficient or might we still be suspecting that the alien's actual ability was to plant illusions in our brains?

How would we know if we had at last met a god...or met the god of gods? What could satisfy you as unassailable proof of a god rather than an extremely advanced alien magician?
A destruction of Agnosticism which is impossible. Even all beings greater than humanity have no way of knowing that which they don't know. You can think you are omniscient, but you can't be certain you are omniscient... Is God so below a man that he cannot doubt as a child can?

Still there is good and compelling evidence... such as God actually sticking around instead of ditching at the most inconvenient times. How could you deny at least the existence of a being claiming to be God? Ending misunderstandings would be a good start for this God to prove itself. although its supposedly going to do it anyway, just wanted to take a long 7th day before then. I mean, how hard is it to at least repeat the occurrences outlined in the religious stories?
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
This would be a relevant post perhaps if anyone here was making a claim. No one is arguing for or against a god, I am soliciting personal standards of proof, nothing more.
That is why it IS relevant. My entire point is that "personal standards of proof" are the wrong thing TO be soliciting. The standards of evidence and proof to solicit are the ones of the person who at any time is making a claim. Whatever that claim may be.

The question always if person X makes a claim is not "What will convince person Y of this claim" but "What convinced person X of it".
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,131 posts, read 18,604,845 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
That is why it IS relevant. My entire point is that "personal standards of proof" are the wrong thing TO be soliciting. The standards of evidence and proof to solicit are the ones of the person who at any time is making a claim. Whatever that claim may be.

The question always if person X makes a claim is not "What will convince person Y of this claim" but "What convinced person X of it".
You write the above as though there is some prevailing rule. There isn't. If the question had been "What would you accept as proof that my dog can talk?" all that would be required is your providing what sort of evidence you would demand before you would consider believing that my dog can talk.

By your rules, in the above example, it is not only me, the one making the claim, who gets to define your standards of proof for you, it is required that it be me.

That makes no sense, your complaint here makes no sense.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:44 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Yeah, I'd like to know why others are convinced and their reasons for being seduced into belief. For example things like anecdotes about miracles don't convince me, the more absurd the more evidence I would require. But how can I deny personal, objective, and reproducible experience? I'd have to be seriously committed to baseless denial of the demonstrably obvious. "no seriously, it doesn't matter that this women is immortal, can bend space and time to her will consistently, knows the demonstrable secrets of the universe, and explains the past evidently perfectly." you'd be at least a god simply by definition; if not the first and most powerful one (not that I think that gives any legitimacy to a god).
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
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Grandstander I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the question you posed.

What would satisfy you as unassailable proof of a god?
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