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Old 11-02-2013, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,193 posts, read 9,080,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
I have not read the whole thread yet, but I like to ask atheists to first come forth with your concept of what is God.
Ask the OP to define his god, it's his thread, not ours.

For purposes of this discussion I think it's pretty obvious that we are talking about any generic monotheistic god-concept and not even limited to the Abrahamic faiths, but inclusive of pantheism and panentheism. If I understand the OP's question correctly, he's simply saying, if we were to finally track down this elusive beast known as a Supreme Being, whoever or whatever it is, how would we know that we had done so?

Your question is one of the difficulties in providing an answer. God is whoever people decide that he is and whatever they project, and if I am correct, god will always disappear when you look directly at him. And that is just what we see -- god is always out of the corner of your eye, the still, small voice, the ineffable subjective impression. He is everything but ultimately nothing.
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Old 11-02-2013, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,699 posts, read 23,658,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
I have not read the whole thread yet, but I like to ask atheists to first come forth with your concept of what is God.

Because if you have the wrong concept of what is God then you are not hitting the God that is in relation to mankind and the universe, the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

Now, this is what I expect but I am not happy with atheists, they will at least some insist on stating that they don't have to acquire any concept of God because they don't accept His existence.

The way I see it, that is a most illogical position, for how can you deny the existence of something in the first place you don't even care to know what it is you are denying the existence of?

So, dear atheists here, please -- and forgive me if I give you the impression that I am imposing on your reasoning capability, please present your concept of what is God in relation to man and the physical universe.


Ryrge
You ask a question, you answer the question. The height of arrogance. And oh so typical of theists. Which is why I don't bother with you in the first place. You people never ask nicely.
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Old 11-02-2013, 03:52 PM
 
204 posts, read 278,102 times
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Winning the lottery would be a start
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:05 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post

[...]

Does that make any sense? It's very hard to explain things the human mind cannot comprehend!

Try to just the same to produce a concept of God from your best sincerity to formulate one and employing all your thinking resources and knowledge.

Here is my concept of God, in relation to man and the physical universe God is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

Now, please and forgive me for repeating, do not proceed right away to debunk my concept of God, first present your concept of God.



Ryrge
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:11 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I've been musing about this for an hour and I can't think of anything.

There are things I could probably fairly easily be persuaded of given the right evidence [...]

[...]


You bring up evidence, may we two work together to come to a concurred on concept of evidence?

Here is my concept of evidence, in the most crude manner I can come to:
Evidence is anything man knows to exist leading him to know another thing to exist.


Ryrge
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:15 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
[...]

If a logically consistent, falsifiable god-hypothesis had sufficient empirical evidence and demonstrated predictive power ( i.e. we could confirm that our god-hypothesis accurately models god), I would have to agree it exists.

[...]


I like most earnestly to invite you and me to work together to come to a concurred on concept of what is evidence.

For my own concept, see my immediately preceding post above.



Ryrge
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:22 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Actually, it is very easy to "prove" God. How you ask? Just ignore all science.

Since science has systematically shown over the centuries every concept and idea about God to be false, all we need to do is to eradicate this pesky little thing called science from our collective consciousness and voila! God reappears once again.

That is a very sweeping statement, "science has systematically shown over the centuries every concept and idea about God to be false."


Forgive me, but may I just ask you for just three concepts of God from you which science has proven to be false.



Ryrge
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:43 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge
I have not read the whole thread yet, but I like to ask atheists to first come forth with your concept of what is God.

Because if you have the wrong concept of what is God then you are not hitting the God that is in relation to mankind and the universe, the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

Now, this is what I expect but I am not happy with atheists, they will at least some insist on stating that they don't have to acquire any concept of God because they don't accept His existence.

The way I see it, that is a most illogical position, for how can you deny the existence of something in the first place you don't even care to know what it is you are denying the existence of?

So, dear atheists here, please -- and forgive me if I give you the impression that I am imposing on your reasoning capability, please present your concept of what is God in relation to man and the physical universe.


You ask a question, you answer the question. The height of arrogance. And oh so typical of theists. Which is why I don't bother with you in the first place. You people never ask nicely.

You bring in the matter of theists' arrogance because I volunteer my concept of God on the idea that if I don't volunteer my idea of God, atheists will right away tell me to produce my concept of God because I am the one claiming that God exists.

So, dear atheist here, do you notice that you are not working to come up with your concept of God, but you prefer to attack theists like myself for volunteering my concept of God on the socalled according to you, our arrogance -- which forgive me, is neither here nor there in an exchange of thoughts in a forum.

May I now just request of you, now that you have already finished with bashing me on my arrogance and also on all theists who volunteer their concepts of God, to be willing to produce your concept of God.


You are not happy with these words from me:
Now, this is what I expect but I am not happy with atheists, they will at least some insist on stating that they don't have to acquire any concept of God because they don't accept His existence.

Well, you can just deny that to be true with all atheists, no need to take offense and accuse theists of arrogance, and all the time you do not present your concept of God?

May I just with all sincerity again ask of you to produce your concept of God, and also if you think you owe it to yourself, then also say what or how you think theists will react.

Then we can already move forward to work on concurring on a concept of God that is acceptable to both sides, atheists' as wll as theists'.




Ryrge
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:51 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
I like most earnestly to invite you and me to work together to come to a concurred on concept of what is evidence.

For my own concept, see my immediately preceding post above.

Ryrge
I gave mine. Empirical evidence. If two people are going to use the same evidence to discuss a conclusion, it must be objective evidence that can be examined by both parties. Subjective experience doesn't cut it. Likewise, logical argument misses the mark because it inherently says nothing about the truth of a proposition except in relation to its axioms. If there is a problem in a premise, then though the logic may be clear, the answer can still be wrong.

A further problem is that empirical evidence is what should be used to establish the existence of any entity, be it a man, a god, the Higgs Boson, or a planet. However, once existence is defined, then the question remains, "Is it a god"? This is something I have not gotten a clear answer from most believers on. Is the Higgs boson a god? We know it exists, which is one better than YHWH. What about tornados? They also exist, and uncontrollable, and powerful. Are they gods? Ultimately I tend to think we will have a hard time calling any natural phenomenon that can be understood or characterized by human understanding a god. Is it any wonder we cannot prove it's existence? If it does exist, by the time we understand it, we can no longer worship it. This is precisely what has happened to the stars and planets. We no longer revere the sun, even though it exists, because we can examine it through science. I think this is why the longest enduring gods will be the once that have no empirical evidence to examine. Because once there is data, you can't keep making stuff up...

-NoCapo
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Old 11-02-2013, 05:00 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
Try to just the same to produce a concept of God from your best sincerity to formulate one and employing all your thinking resources and knowledge.

Here is my concept of God, in relation to man and the physical universe God is the creator of everything that is not God Himself.

Now, please and forgive me for repeating, do not proceed right away to debunk my concept of God, first present your concept of God.

Ryrge
Why do you ask those of us who don't believe in a god to define it for you? You already have a definition of god we can work with. We usually tend to try to refrain from crating a strawman argument which is what you appear to be asking us to do...

But if you like, I don't believe in your concept of god, but I also don't believe in MysticPhd's concept of god, a sentient reality. I don't believe in the concept of god I was taught in sunday school, the god of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob who sent his son as a ransom for many. I don't believe in the concept of god as Brahman, the mystic unchanging reality from which all things spring. Now of these, I think it is probably most useful to discuss your concept of god, because that is really all you care about. You would tell me that all the rest are incorrect ideas about god, so lets cut to the chase and talk about the one you think is correct...

BTW, did you give up on the Kalam argument? I thought we were going to discuss origins?

-NoCapo
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