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No Capo,
I have to run ....quickly, I believe you are misunderstanding me
I am on "your side". I don't believe anyone should believe in something they have not
experienced.
And pushy religious people, bug me like crazy...whatever religion.
I don't have much interest in whether anyone believes in God or not.
If in past posts I have talked about God...it was not for an atheist's benefit...far from it.
They were, in my mind, to fellow "believer's". I hope know one ever took it as if I wanted to influence
any atheists....not my thing...never has been.
Til tomorrow.
Last edited by Miss Hepburn; 10-27-2013 at 09:10 PM..
I mean it...why is it an issue on so many Forums?
Who cares if some people have bind faith, have seen God or have not seen God?
Lots of reasons.
Firstly if there is a god then this is something many people would like to know. Clearly it would be an important fact to have in ones knowledge base. So if others claim to have reasons to think such a thing is true then I would like to know those reasons.
Secondly theists in their droves attempt to influence our halls of power, education and science based on the concept that there is a god. So it is not so much that we care what they think as they give us no option but to care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
Be open, curious...never shut down possibilities, I say.
You make it sound like we are not doing the things you suggest. Just because we have yet to be convinced of the claims does not mean we have not remained open and curious or have shut down "possibilities". It does not matter how open one keeps themselves if the claims being made are, and remain, unsubstantiated nonsense.
To me it sounds like you are "preaching to the choir" and asking us to act in ways that we already are.
Be open, curious...never shut down possibilities, I say. No need for hostile debates or name calling.
Be respectfully curious.
To me that is a sign of an advanced soul.
Good responses all around, but I would add that you may be overlooking the diversity in theism. If every theist were the live-and-let-live type and "respectfully curious" like yourself, the tenor of the debate would be less contentious. You don't regard me as some sort of conduit for evil in the world, and I would return the favor. Your belief is not threatened by my unbelief, and vice versa. We could agree to disagree. In fact that is what you and I actually do -- but me and other theists, not necessarily.
In addition, the tenor of these forums is a bit of a special case. I'd venture to say that 95% of the debate here would never occur in real life because people come here for the express purpose of debate. It is a style of interaction that most people don't encounter unless they seek it out and it can seem more fractious than it actually is -- especially given the influence of the Internet itself (similar to why people often are much more prone to road rage than to punch each other out when they bump into each other as pedestrians; both cars and computers create a perceived "bubble of impunity").
And that brings me to the last difference. Debate by its very nature is concerned with proofs. Theists tend to make assertions and provide zero substantiation. If you look at atheist responses and control for the youngsters who shoot their mouths off once in awhile, what you end up with is that we are pretty much just asking for theists to either substantiate what they are saying or admit that it is blind faith and/or personal subjective experience that is inadmissible in evidence. I may not agree with your faith (or be capable of it) and I may not have had your personal subjective experiences but that doesn't mean I can't respect you. What I can't respect in a theist is bald assertions that they pretend is obvious fact but isn't -- and they won't back it up with any sort of evidence that would be admissible in any debate on any topic.
I also suspect that if you were to collate all the debates in this space it would be mostly with fundamentalist types who are legends in their own minds and convinced of their capital-T Truth. On a worldwide basis at least, they are a minority in numbers but like the Tea Party in the US, their influence is out of proportion to their numbers and they tend to dominate the discourse and clog up the works.
Believing in things for which there is no evidence is wishful, not critical, thinking.
If your wishful thinking leads to a belief in leprechauns, that would be unfortunate but not all that serious.
That is, until some members of your group decided that people who believed that leprechaun gold was found below sun dogs, rather than at the end of rainbows, needed to be oppressed and/or killed. And until they started flying planes into buildings full of people who declined to believe in leprechauns.
Then it would be very serious, indeed.
Of course, such would be very unlikely to happen, because it's hard to get too worked about about little green men with Irish accents who horde gold at the end of rainbows (or sun dogs). But when you postulate an all-powerful entity who demands certain behavior from all people, then you have a recipe for oppression, violence and slaughter. And with enough people embracing this all-powerful-entity belief, it becomes inevitable that some of them will start cooking that recipe of destruction.
I mean it...why is it an issue on so many Forums?
Who cares if some people have bind faith, have seen God or have not seen God?
It's an issue, because some theists are forcing me to live my life according to their beliefs. If they choose to live by the words written in a book, fine. When they push for laws that have a very real effect on my life, I will fight tooth and nail against them.
If some group got laws passed that had an adverse effect on your life based on what an invisible toaster, alien, leprechaun, told them, wouldn't you want proof of the invisible toaster, alien, leprechaun? Or would you just bow to their beliefs?
PS... I don't understand blind faith. I believe it leads to people believing some written words
by "who knows who", then a pastor or Elder Fathers of a Church in 700 AD's interpretation, so now a belief
is molded in the minds of millions for centuries....and they haven't had any direct experience.
SO...then dogma and rigidity starts in...anger bec of feeling threatened of anothers alternative belief.
Geeze!
Critical thinking...aha, in spiritual matters, I have no critical thinking, Unsettam...I just have my experience
And trying to get rid of concepts, even my own from last month.
Brain chemistry...yes, my brain chemistry is so changed when I have what Christians call
the Holy Spirit visits me....it's as if some sleeping folded gray matter "unfolded", was
squirted with a neat chemical, sparks of synapes are going off and Bada Bing....I'm knocked on my butt,
mouth dropped in awe looking at the trees and mountains as they are alive, breathing with Consciousness
and love unimaginable.
If a person were to have an altered state of awareness...the kind where you don't need
an electron microscope to see into things, the Doors of Perception are opened...it doesn't happen in some
Vacuum....there are chemicals shootin' all OVER my brain. Oh yeah....
Yessirree.
This Being works in a chemistry LAB, as far as I can see.
However, I am just explaining where I am personally coming from. I doesn't matter to me if
you see it differently.
I just would like peace with atheists and theists already.
But, I know people like to debate.
You completely missed Capo's first point. If religious people would keep their beliefs to themselves, not attempt to affect public policy, not try to teach all children that why they believe is true, and quit flying planes into buildings, I doubt that many atheists would have a problem with them, especially if it makes them less violent.
Thank you!
Also, I'm not really sure of the OP's intent here. Generally we atheists do not request proof of any deities unless or until someone gets in our face with their pronouncements that one exists. Or, at least I don't. I don't go to believer forums to get into it with them.
But you'd better believe that if someone starts brandishing a bible at me, I'm going to roll my eyes, tell them to prove it, and walk away. No, I don't want to hear their "proof." They have faith, not proof, and there is a big difference between the two.
It's an issue, because some theists are forcing me to live my life according to their beliefs. If they choose to live by the words written in a book, fine. When they push for laws that have a very real effect on my life, I will fight tooth and nail against them.
If some group got laws passed that had an adverse effect on your life based on what an invisible toaster, alien, leprechaun, told them, wouldn't you want proof of the invisible toaster, alien, leprechaun? Or would you just bow to their beliefs?
Sounds like you're saying you wouldn't care so much what someone believes...
It is their pushing those beliefs into laws and such.
Well, sure, who wants that!!?!
I wouldn't care about proof so much I would just tell them to sh-ve it and stop
pushing it on ME!
So ok you want them to prove it. Good luck with that. :wink:
I'd have more luck with telling them to simply quittit...believe what you want, don't lay it on ME!
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